Provisional or not a provisional?

[Eddie]

We had a issue this morning with one, can you try and settle an argument?

Imagine a par 4 with a pond to the front and right of the green (red staked) with about 10yds between the pond and the green.

So I teed off ok and had 130yds to the green but my second shot goes to the right and skirts the pond perilously too close for comfort and it looked like it had caught the bank and gone in the water but we were all unsure.

Not knowing for sure from where I was stood if it had bounced off the bank and into the water or not I dropped another ball in the same place as I hit the last one and called a "provisional ball" . I proceeded to hit the "provisional" to less than an inch from the hole! ..... typical, I know.

So we stolled down to the pond to look for my first ball and there was no sign of it. On further investigation and looking in the pond and with the aid of my playing partners ball retrever we fished out a ball and what turned out to be my ball out of two feet of water , it was my origional ball and yes unfortunately it was in the pond.

My mate says I should have THEN (just because the ball was evetually found) disregarded my "provisional ball" and THEN taken one of the three options,
A. a drop out (two club length) ,
B. drop back in line where it crossed the pond
C.go back to the place where I hit it last!

I said no and disagreed as Id al played a provisional already from back in the fairway when I suspected it was in the pond. The matter that my provisional was now at the hole side was irrelevent and I could and should continue to play it .

Just because we did actually find the origional ball it was of no consiquence as it was under water and unplayable?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The second ball you played was a “provisional” - so it becomes the ball in play if you are unable to locate your original ball within the time limit

Because you found your ball you can’t play your provisional as it’s no longer relevant

So your PP was correct with the three options

 

[Voyager EMH]

Once found, the original ball was the ball in play and your "provisional" ball is disregarded.

 

[jim8flog]

On the first point you can only play a provisional for a ball that may be Out of Bounds or lost in bounds and not in in a penalty area (the pond).

To play on using the Penalty area rule it must be known or virtually certain that the ball went in to it given the statement "but we were all unsure" this is not the case.

So the correct course of action would have been to walk forward to find the ball and then proceed accordingly.

Once you hit another ball off the tee it becomes the ball in play and wherever the first ball is it has to be disregarded.

Off to check what it actually says in rules book

 

[Eddie]

So let me get this right.
If you think your ball may be in a pond you can't play another ball (a provisional) until youve confirmed that its in the pond? Not even to save time and to save walking back to the origional point? Seems odd to me. Im not convinced 100%.
My other ball was struck from the same point as the first and thats one of the three options I would have anyway?

 

[Eddie]

This was also a shot from the fairway not the tee ....if that makes any odds .
I thought the idea of a provisional was to save time and speed up the game ? Walking to confirm its lost seems to counter that idea?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So let me get this right.
If you think your ball may be in a pond you can't play another ball (a provisional) until youve confirmed that its in the pond? Not even to save time and to save walking back to the origional point? Seems odd to me. Im not convinced 100%.
My other ball was struck from the same point as the first and thats one of the three options I would have anyway?

https://www.golfmonthly.com/videos/rules/golf-rules-explained-provisional-ball

If you believe your ball is in the pond then you have two options

Play another ball and that’s the ball in play

Or take relief from hazard area

if you are unsure if it’s in the pond and could be lost you can play a provisional

But once you find your original ball then the provisional is not relevant anymore

 

[jim8flog]

From the book

18.3 Provisional Ball
a. When Provisional Ball Is Allowed

If a ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 14.6).

For a ball that might be lost, this applies:

• When the original ball has not been found and identified and is not yet lost, and
• When a ball might be lost in a penalty area but also might be lost somewhere else on the course.

But if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed and a ball played from where the previous stroke was made becomes the player’s ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 18.1).

 

[jim8flog]

I thought the idea of a provisional was to save time and speed up the game ? Walking to confirm its lost seems to counter that idea?

A misconception by many players who have not actually read the rules. When a provisional ball can be played is very clearly defined in the rule book. In this circumstance if you think the ball may be lost outside of the hazard you can play a provisional but not merely because you need to check if the ball went it to the penalty area.

 

[Imurg]

Are we assuming the original ball was found within the 3 minutes.?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Ah.
A ball might be found within 3 minutes, then an additional reasonable amount if time to identify it as the player's ball.

 

[jim8flog]

I would add that if you were playing the provisional as a ball that may have been lost outside of the penalty area once you have located the original ball the provisional ball must be taken out of play and you then have to continue under the penalty area rule (rule 17).
i.e Your mate was right

 

[PhilTheFragger]

You. An play a provisional anytime you like
Even if your first is in the middle of the fairway sitting pretty

 

[rulie]

You. An play a provisional anytime you like
Even if your first is in the middle of the fairway sitting pretty

Not exactly true. You can only play a provisional if your original ball might be lost outside a penalty area or might be out of bounds.
If you know that your ball is in a penalty area, you cannot play a provisional.
If your original ball is known to be in the middle of the fairway, where there is no chance it will be lost, you cannot play a provisional.

 

[Eddie]

There some confliction and Im even more confused
So I called it a provisional....ok....it wasnt a provisional then and it was a replacement as my ball was in the water , it was just that I didnt know it. Youre not telling me if you hit into a pond you have to go and look first then walk all the way back and drop as one of the three options? Im a player whos comfotable and more likely to get close from 130yds rather than 10yds thats why I hit the ball from the last point and wouldnt have hit a chip from the pond.
Also confusing is the in or outside of a penalty area?
Im gonna contact Patrick Reed and see what he would do

 

[mikejohnchapman]

You need to check if the club have implemented a local rule to cover this situation.

In specific cases the club can allow a provisional ball to be played if it is not KVC to ball cleared it (model LP B3}. This is mainly a pace of play provision to stop people having to come back to play if it is found in the penalty area,

Model Local Rule B-3
“If a player does not know whether his or her ball is in the penalty area [identify location], the player may play a provisional ball under Rule 18.3, which is modified in this way:
In playing the provisional ball, the player may use the stroke-and-distance relief option (see Rule 17.1d(1), the back-on-the-line relief option (see Rule 17.1d(2)) or, if it is a red penalty area, the lateral relief option (see Rule 17.1d(3)). If a dropping zone (see Model Local Rule E-1) is available for this penalty area, the player may also use that relief option.
Once the player has played a provisional ball under this Rule, he or she may not use any further options under Rule 17.1 in relation to the original ball.
In deciding when that provisional ball becomes the player’s ball in play or if it must or may be abandoned, Rule 18.3c(2) and 18.3c(3) apply except that:

• When Original Ball Is Found in Penalty Area Within Three-Minute Search Time. The player may choose either to:
  • Continue to play the original ball as it lies in the penalty area, in which case the provisional ball must not be played. All strokes with that provisional ball before it was abandoned (including strokes made and any penalty strokes solely from playing that ball) do not count, or
  • Continue to play the provisional ball in which case the original ball must not be played.
• When Original Ball Is Not Found Within Three-Minute Search Time or Is Known or Virtually Certain to Be in Penalty Area. The provisional ball becomes the player’s ball in play.

Penalty for Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty.”

 

[Eddie]

You need to check if the club have implemented a local rule to cover this situation.

In specific cases the club can allow a provisional ball to be played if it is not KVC to ball cleared it (model LP B3}. This is mainly a pace of play provision to stop people having to come back to play if it is found in the penalty area,

Model Local Rule B-3
“If a player does not know whether his or her ball is in the penalty area [identify location], the player may play a provisional ball under Rule 18.3, which is modified in this way:
In playing the provisional ball, the player may use the stroke-and-distance relief option (see Rule 17.1d(1), the back-on-the-line relief option (see Rule 17.1d(2)) or, if it is a red penalty area, the lateral relief option (see Rule 17.1d(3)). If a dropping zone (see Model Local Rule E-1) is available for this penalty area, the player may also use that relief option.
Once the player has played a provisional ball under this Rule, he or she may not use any further options under Rule 17.1 in relation to the original ball.
In deciding when that provisional ball becomes the player’s ball in play or if it must or may be abandoned, Rule 18.3c(2) and 18.3c(3) apply except that:

• When Original Ball Is Found in Penalty Area Within Three-Minute Search Time. The player may choose either to:
  • Continue to play the original ball as it lies in the penalty area, in which case the provisional ball must not be played. All strokes with that provisional ball before it was abandoned (including strokes made and any penalty strokes solely from playing that ball) do not count, or
  • Continue to play the provisional ball in which case the original ball must not be played.
• When Original Ball Is Not Found Within Three-Minute Search Time or Is Known or Virtually Certain to Be in Penalty Area. The provisional ball becomes the player’s ball in play.

Penalty for Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty.”

That sounds more like it.
I can live with that, I think thats what I did in a round about way

 

[Eddie]

So you hit into a pond with your second shot ......what should you do then , no ones given the answer yet just cutting and pasting what Ive already read myself . Lets speak Layman's terms for those of us that arnt PGA officials that sleep with a copy of the rules book.
I still dont think I did anything wrong and nothing in the comments has convinced me although Im willing to be corrected.

 

[Eddie]

Once found, the original ball was the ball in play and your "provisional" ball is disregarded.

Even in the pond and unplayable ?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Even in the pond and unplayable ?

Yes.

Unless a local rule applies, as described above.
Although you stated you like such a local rule, it applies only if your club has officially instated it.