Provisional ball allowed?

[Whereditgo]

Club champs last weekend and 1 of the guys in our 3 ball was having a bit of a mare with his driver. He sliced his drive on the long par 4 7th and it immediately headed over the red staked ditch towards some trees, the nettles are waist deep on the other side of the red stakes, no one ever even looks for a ball in there in summer. He commented something along the lines of "that's gone" or "that's dead". As he bent down to pick up his tee, the ball popped back out on our side of the red staked area, almost reaching the fairway. I laughed and told him it was ok and I had seen exactly where the ball finished, the other guy in the group wasn't quite as sure.

The player tee'd another ball up and called it a provisional, I reassured him that his original ball was 100% in play. Was he entitled to still play another ball as a provisional?

He topped his provisional 50 yards and while he looked for that I walked to his original ball which was exactly where I had seen it finish, so he then picked up the 2nd ball and continued the hole with the original ball.

 

[LincolnShep]

If he thinks his ball may be OOB, or lost (outside a penalty area), he is entitled to play a provisional. It's his decision.

 

[IanMcC]

Nothing wrong with any actions here. 18.3a. Ball might be lost. The player has not seen it yet.

 

[crdb]

He hasn't seen the ball come out so is fine to take a provisional yes

 

[rulefan]

He sliced his drive on the long par 4 7th and it immediately headed over the red staked ditch towards some trees, the nettles are waist deep on the other side of the red stakes, no one ever even looks for a ball in there in summer. He commented something along the lines of "that's gone" or "that's dead". As he bent down to pick up his tee, the ball popped back out on our side of the red staked area, almost reaching the fairway.

Just curious but why would think he may not be permitted to play a provisional?

 

[Whereditgo]

Just curious but why would think he may not be permitted to play a provisional?

Not sure really, just seemed odd that based on the fact that it was known that the ball wasn't lost he could play a provisional, accepting I suppose that he hadn't seen it himself.

 

[Neilds]

Not sure really, just seemed odd that based on the fact that it was known that the ball wasn't lost he could play a provisional, accepting I suppose that he hadn't seen it himself.

I suspect many on here have thought they have seen the ball drop, to find it was a twig/leaf or similar and the ball is nowhere to be seen

 

[clubchamp98]

Not sure really, just seemed odd that based on the fact that it was known that the ball wasn't lost he could play a provisional, accepting I suppose that he hadn't seen it himself.

Just because you seen it dosnt mean you will find it.!
Lots of balls are lost when we see the ball bounce and know where they are approximately.

So he was correct to play a provisional.

 

[Whereditgo]

Just because you seen it dosnt mean you will find it.!
Lots of balls are lost when we see the ball bounce and know where they are approximately.

So he was correct to play a provisional.

I could see it from the tee box, not see where it bounced to, actually see it!

 

[rulefan]

Not sure really, just seemed odd that based on the fact that it was known that the ball wasn't lost he could play a provisional, accepting I suppose that he hadn't seen it himself.

Thanks.
Yes, it is his judgement of course.

 

[Swango1980]

I could see it from the tee box, not see where it bounced to, actually see it!

The fact that the other chap in the group "wasn't so sure" would indicate to me there was still at least some doubt? Could they not see the ball from the tee, as you could?

Ultimately, if the player who hit the shot is in doubt, they can play a provisional.

 

[Whereditgo]

The fact that the other chap in the group "wasn't so sure" would indicate to me there was still at least some doubt? Could they not see the ball from the tee, as you could?

Ultimately, if the player who hit the shot is in doubt, they can play a provisional.

The guy who hit it was looking in completely the wrong direction, up the adjacent fairway.

No idea why the other guy didn't see it, maybe he stopped watching, so didn't know where to look the ball just slowly lobbed out, bounced 3 or 4 times and came to rest a foot or two from the edge of the fairway.

 

[Swango1980]

The guy who hit it was looking in completely the wrong direction, up the adjacent fairway.

No idea why the other guy didn't see it, maybe he stopped watching, so didn't know where to look the ball just slowly lobbed out, bounced 3 or 4 times and came to rest a foot or two from the edge of the fairway.

No idea how far it was away. But, when it finished up, if it was still clearly visible from the tee, I suppose I'd say "your ball bounced out, there is is there sitting on the fairway". If the person who hit the ball could also see it, then that would normally be enough for them to be confident enough their ball is fine. I'd then wonder why they then decide to hit a provisional, when they can clearly see the ball I pointed to as being theirs.

However, if I saw it bounce out, but it wasn't really visible once it came to rest, I can appreciate there might be some doubt from the person who hit it. Maybe a small chance it was a leaf or something that bounces out. I've certainly heard people claim my ball was OK before, then when we get there it is nowhere to be seen. In that case, especially if the 3rd person in the group is also doubtful, then I'd understand the player hitting a provisional to be on the safe side.

 

[Colin L]

The guy who hit it was looking in completely the wrong direction, up the adjacent fairway.

No idea why the other guy didn't see it, maybe he stopped watching, so didn't know where to look the ball just slowly lobbed out, bounced 3 or 4 times and came to rest a foot or two from the edge of the fairway.

I think you should give up! As said, the player's decision is what matters and if you raised the matter with the Committee (which is all you could do) I see nothing to suggest the player could not play a provisional. Your belief that his ball was clearly visible is not in any way binding upon him. Ball spotters have been known to get it wrong. It's not a big deal anyway. If when he gets to the location and finds his original ball where you said it would be, that's fine. He plays it and picks up his provisional . If you were wrong and his ball is lost, time has been saved. In no way does he gain any undue advantage.

 

[Whereditgo]

I think you should give up! As said, the player's decision is what matters and if you raised the matter with the Committee (which is all you could do) I see nothing to suggest the player could not play a provisional. Your belief that his ball was clearly visible is not in any way binding upon him. Ball spotters have been known to get it wrong.

Cheers Colin.....I'm not trying to argue that anything was wrong, I didn't have any intention of suggesting to the player or anyone else that any penalty should, or could, be applied, it was only later that I thought about it that it seemed a bit odd and wondered if the actions could have been interpreted by someone as not meeting the requirements for playing a provisional ball, i.e. the original ball may be out of bounds or lost outside of a hazard.

I have only replied to clarify questions

It totally makes sense that if the player himself is in any doubt he should play a provisional.

 

[Old Colner]

OP states that the area in question was a red staked penalty area so the player did not necessarily have to return to the tee, of course it was still an option.

 

[Swango1980]

OP states that the area in question was a red staked penalty area so the player did not necessarily have to return to the tee, of course it was still an option.

There also seemed to be enough in the OP to suggest that if the ball could not be found, it could be lost outside the penalty area ("the nettles are waist deep on the other side of the red stakes, no one ever even looks for a ball in there in summer.")

Therefore, if that was the case, the player would have no choice to return to the tee if the ball was not found (had they not hit a provisional).

Of course, if I was wrong, and the only place the ball could have been lost (if not found) was in the Penalty Area, they would not have been able to play a provisional anyway. A provisional can only be played if the ball is thought to be OB or lost outside a PA

 

[Old Colner]

There also seemed to be enough in the OP to suggest that if the ball could not be found, it could be lost outside the penalty area ("the nettles are waist deep on the other side of the red stakes, no one ever even looks for a ball in there in summer.")

Therefore, if that was the case, the player would have no choice to return to the tee if the ball was not found (had they not hit a provisional).

Of course, if I was wrong, and the only place the ball could have been lost (if not found) was in the Penalty Area, they would not have been able to play a provisional anyway. A provisional can only be played if the ball is thought to be OB or lost outside a PA

OK, I read it as the nettles an such were in the penalty area, my mistake.

 

[berniethebolt]

So if the ball "might" be in a penalty area then you are not allowed to play a provisional?

 

[Swango1980]

So if the ball "might" be in a penalty area then you are not allowed to play a provisional?

Nope, that is not the case. If the only place it could be lost is in a PA, then you cannot play a provisional. But, in the case of the OP, where there were nettles and all sorts of rubbish outside the PA, then they were entitled to play a provisional (even if the ball may have ended up in the PA).