Provisional Allowed?

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Scenario - Mixed 4BBB match. We decided that both gents would tee off before the ladies. Opposition PP tees off and sends his ball over high trees and out of sight towards water. He says nothing other than asking where it went. I tee off - OK - and we walk forward maybe 30yds to the ladies tee.

His partner then sticks her ball in the water. My partner gets away OK. My oppo PP then says that he'll go back and play a provisional. I say he can't as he needed to state his intent immediately after his first tee shot - and the match has moved on. He says he could as he and his PP are a team and he can state his wish to play a provisional after his PP has played.

Who was right?

 

[Spuddy]

Generally you can go forward approximately 50yds before deciding to go back and hit a provisional. As its a team game I don't see any problem in him deciding to do so after his team mate has played their tee shot.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Generally you can go forward approximately 50yds before deciding to go back and hit a provisional. As its a team game I don't see any problem in him deciding to do so after his team mate has played their tee shot.

hmmm - I get the 50yd thing - so I was wrong then. Just the fact that I had played before his partner. We had walked forward and hung about a short time before his PP played (what if she'd taken 5mins before playing?) and then waited until he saw my PP hit the fairway.

 

[Ethan]

Interesting one. The rules on the provo are somewhat imprecise, and allow a walk forward of approx 50 yards, but that doesn't include going forward for specific reasons, with examples cited of consulting a referee or getting another ball. 4BBB is a team game, and decisions such as order of play and advice are allowed, so I think the player's argument that he was essentially walking forward to await the outcome of his team member's shot is perhaps stretching it, but not to breaking point.

 

[Spuddy]

hmmm - I get the 50yd thing - so I was wrong then. Just the fact that I had played before his partner. We had walked forward and hung about a short time before his PP played (what if she'd taken 5mins before playing?) and then waited until he saw my PP hit the fairway.

5 minutes is irrelevant as the search hasn't commenced. Also, 10-3 talks about order of play for a provisional and it says it must be played after the opponent has taken their first shot. Your female partner is their opponent so playing his provisional after your partner has teed off is in compliance with the rule.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

the 5mins was a notional amount of time I plucked out of the air (I could have said 10mins in this scenario) and not linked to time allowed for searching

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

5 minutes is irrelevant as the search hasn't commenced. Also, 10-3 talks about order of play for a provisional and it says it must be played after the opponent has taken their first shot. Your female partner is their opponent so playing his provisional after your partner has teed off is in compliance with the rule.

The tee shot of my PP was directly affected by the fact that they were both in trouble. As far as the 50yds aspect of when it is OK to play a provisional - what if there is 100yds between the gents and ladies tees. My opp could walk to the ladies tee - have a look to see where is ball might be - then decide to go back and play a provisional?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Interesting one. The rules on the provo are somewhat imprecise, and allow a walk forward of approx 50 yards, but that doesn't include going forward for specific reasons, with examples cited of consulting a referee or getting another ball. 4BBB is a team game, and decisions such as order of play and advice are allowed, so I think the player's argument that he was essentially walking forward to await the outcome of his team member's shot is perhaps stretching it, but not to breaking point.

I am almost certain he was not thinking this. His PP had a shot on the hole and had been consistently smacking the ball down the fairway and so he fully expected her to do the same - except this time she didn't.

 

[Spuddy]

The tee shot of my PP was directly affected by the fact that they were both in trouble. As far as the 50yds aspect of when it is OK to play a provisional - what if there is 100yds between the gents and ladies tees. My opp could walk to the ladies tee - have a look to see where is ball might be - then decide to go back and play a provisional?

There are a couple of examples given as to when a player may go more than 50yds forward but the list is non exhaustive. All it says is you must have gone forward for a specific purpose (other than heading off to search for his ball). Had everyone been playing from the same tee you wouldn't have had a problem. Have you never been playing in a game where you tee off first, initially think your ball is OK but decide while everyone else is playing that you had better hit a provisional just to be safe? The fact that the tees are apart is irrelevant and if they happened to be 100yds apart and the guy couldn't see his ball from the forward tee while waiting for the ladies to play so decided to play a provisional then I'd say that was his good fortune.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There are a couple of examples given as to when a player may go more than 50yds forward but the list is non exhaustive. All it says is you must have gone forward for a specific purpose (other than heading off to search for his ball). Had everyone been playing from the same tee you wouldn't have had a problem. Have you never been playing in a game where you tee off first, initially think your ball is OK but decide while everyone else is playing that you had better hit a provisional just to be safe? The fact that the tees are apart is irrelevant and if they happened to be 100yds apart and the guy couldn't see his ball from the forward tee while waiting for the ladies to play so decided to play a provisional then I'd say that was his good fortune.

OK - I am happy to be wrong - in fact at the time I said to the guy I wasn't at all sure and if he wanted to go back and play a provisional then I was OK with it. But he said - no - he was OK just to proceed and go look for his ball (which he didn't find)

 

[Spuddy]

OK - I am happy to be wrong - in fact at the time I said to the guy I wasn't at all sure and if he wanted to go back and play a provisional then I was OK with it. But he said - no - he was OK just to proceed and go look for his ball (which he didn't find)

Please tell me you won the hole?

 

[duncan mackie]

The principle of a provisional is to speed up play; the ruling bodies don't like the concept (because of all the issues around ignoring the fiest if you hit a good one and spending 5 minutes when the next 3 all head for trouble!) but accept the wider good.

This is why the corollary is that you can't go back and play a provisional - generally you aren't saving time.

However, the recent revision to the decisions was made to assist those ruling to recognise that there are times when only in going forwards does it become apparent that playing a provisional would be the right thing within the general principle of the provisional. .. whether that be in being able to observe potential issues in finding the first, or in this case the subsequent actions of a partner from their tee. I would see his action in going back to play one as consistent with these principles.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Please tell me you won the hole?

We did - well my PP did - as I proceeded to mess up given I was worrying about whether I'd been right or not.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The principle of a provisional is to speed up play; the ruling bodies don't like the concept (because of all the issues around ignoring the fiest if you hit a good one and spending 5 minutes when the next 3 all head for trouble!) but accept the wider good.

This is why the corollary is that you can't go back and play a provisional - generally you aren't saving time.

However, the recent revision to the decisions was made to assist those ruling to recognise that there are times when only in going forwards does it become apparent that playing a provisional would be the right thing within the general principle of the provisional. .. whether that be in being able to observe potential issues in finding the first, or in this case the subsequent actions of a partner from their tee. I would see his action in going back to play one as consistent with these principles.

Damn it. I was wrong. They won the match. I am consoled.