Provisional after hitting into water

[Biggleswade Blue]

The recent threads about lost balls and provisionals raised this.

Tee shot hits tree on the far edge of a lake. Not sure from the tee if ball is safe or wet.

I think my options are:

1. Play a provisional from the tee as my third shot. If I find the original ignore the provisional, if not use the provisional
2. Take a drop as far back as I like, on a line with where the ball went over the water no nearer the hole. Play the shot from here as a provisional, it is my third shot. If I find the original ignore the provisional.

Is that right? Option 2 felt like cheating. Is there anything I missed?

 

[nemicu]

Yes. Option 2 is not a provisional ball, therefore you cannot treat it as such. Once you have invoked to drop in accordance to a water hazard rule, it then becomes your ball in play. Even if you subsequently find your original ball (outside the hazard) it must be deemed as lost and the hole must be completed with the ball dropped under rule 26.
See decision 26/6 & 26/7 and also 27/17.

 

[Biggleswade Blue]

Thank you.

 

[Foxholer]

Unless you 'Know or are Virtually Certain' that the ball is in the Water Hazard, you cannot use Option 2!

The way you have described the incident, you can only treat it as potentially lost - and use Option 1. There are some rare exceptions, but they don't seem applicable here.

Also. As Nuemicu posted, the ball dropped in Option 2 is not a Provisional Ball. Once you drop that ball (via KorVC) the original ball is 'lost', So if you subsequently find that it wasn't in the hazard, that's tough - your substituted ball is the ball in play!

 

[duncan mackie]

option 1 with a little addition

if you subsequently establish that the ball did go in the water (as an example another player walks over and tells you that your ball went off a tree into the middle of the hazard when you are looking) option 2 becomes available and your provisional ball is no longer an option and must be picked up. You still have the option to go back to the tee and play again but the ball played provisionally on the original being lost must be abandoned.

 

[atticusfinch]

Rule of thumb: if allowed, a provisional can only be played from the spot of the previous shot. If you "go forward" to look for the ball just played, you can no longer play a provisional.

 

[palindromicbob]

The recent threads about lost balls and provisionals raised this.

Tee shot hits tree on the far edge of a lake. Not sure from the tee if ball is safe or wet.

I think my options are:

1. Play a provisional from the tee as my third shot. If I find the original ignore the provisional, if not use the provisional
2. Take a drop as far back as I like, on a line with where the ball went over the water no nearer the hole. Play the shot from here as a provisional, it is my third shot. If I find the original ignore the provisional.

Is that right? Option 2 felt like cheating. Is there anything I missed?

Surely this statement rules out Option 2.

 

[palindromicbob]

Stupid computer crashed middle of trying to edit my last post.

Anyhoo. Surely the statement shows that known or virtually certain isn't established. Therefore you have 2 choices.

Play a provisional from the tee and then look or go and look and then take relief as appropriate if found in the hazard which could mean dropping back, or continue with it if outside the hazard.

Your other option is don't play the provisional and go down and look. If found then as before play on or take relief. If not found then return to the tee and play another.

When dropping back on the line bear in mind that consideration of where the hole is is necessary it isn't as simple as drop back in a line from where the ball crosses the hazard.

 

[CMAC]

Stupid computer crashed middle of trying to edit my last post.

Anyhoo. Surely the statement shows that known or virtually certain isn't established. Therefore you have 2 choices.

Play a provisional from the tee and then look or go and look and then take relief as appropriate if found in the hazard which could mean dropping back, or continue with it if outside the hazard.

Your other option is don't play the provisional and go down and look. If found then as before play on or take relief. If not found then return to the tee and play another.

When dropping back on the line bear in mind that consideration of where the hole is is necessary it isn't as simple as drop back in a line from where the ball crosses the hazard.

View attachment 11745

I thought it was 2 club lengths from where the ball last crossed the hazard, nothing to do with a line to the pin

 

[Foxholer]

I thought it was 2 club lengths from where the ball last crossed the hazard, nothing to do with a line to the pin

That's (part of) the additional option you get for a Lateral WH! Normal WH is back on line of Pin-Last Crossed. And back to where replayed of course. http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-26/

 

[delc]

I thought it was 2 club lengths from where the ball last crossed the hazard, nothing to do with a line to the pin

For all water hazards you can drop back down the line from where the ball last crossed the hazard line and the pin, as far back as you like. For lateral water hazards (marked with red stakes) you have the additional option of dropping within 2 club lengths of the hazard line, not nearer the hole. See Rule 26-1.

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=26&subRuleNum=1

 

[backwoodsman]

Also. As Nuemicu posted, the ball dropped in Option 2 is not a Provisional Ball. Once you drop that ball (via KorVC) the original ball is 'lost', So if you subsequently find that it wasn't in the hazard, that's tough - your substituted ball is the ball in play!

Indeed, it is the ball in play. But in the circumstances described, I don't think KorVC can apply, so it's also in a wrong place. So if it's played, one is going to kop for some additional penalties (decision 26-1/3)

 

[Foxholer]

Indeed, it is the ball in play. But in the circumstances described, I don't think KorVC can apply, so it's also in a wrong place. So if it's played, one is going to kop for some additional penalties (decision 26-1/3)

I agree that KorVC doesn't seem to apply - in this case.

But my 3rd para was about where it DOES apply - the (via KorVC) bit; Para 1 had already ruled that out for this case. There are several Decisions about this area! 26-1/3 (and 26-1/3.5) is the circumstances I was referring to - where it IS KorVC. 26-1/3.7 is the one relevant to the OP and that you reference as copping some additional penalties because it WASN'T KorVC. Same applies with 27-1/4 which is a slight variation on those circumstances - ball actually found in the hazard.

 

[Biggleswade Blue]

I knew where the ball had crossed the hazard line. I was, as was my FC, virtually certain it was in the water. As it happens, we were wrong.

What I've gleaned is this:

But in playing a ball from behind the hazard on the line between pin and crossing point it became live. If I then realise I was wrong, then tough. I can't return to the first ball at that point.

I could have played a provisional from the tee, then looked for the first one.

The rule about as far back on a line with the pin has been a useful rule to know. Sometimes very helpful indeed, when around water, or if my ball is unplayable.

I'm new ish to all this, and it was just a friendly game. But I am trying to play properly and learn the rules, not make them up, so that one day, I'll be well equipped to play "properly".

Thank you all for your help.

 

[atticusfinch]

KVC is just an evidentiary standard or test used to establish a fact. It's not something that "applies." (That's like applying the "sight test.") You measure facts against the standard and if it is known or VC where the ball is you proceed accordingly. Just being anal. :blah:

 

[Foxholer]

But in playing a ball from behind the hazard on the line between pin and crossing point it became live. If I then realise I was wrong, then tough. I can't return to the first ball at that point.

Just to be absolutely correct.....
It became the ball in play as soon as you dropped it. There was a thread about the difference between that situation and where returning to the Tee!