Premier League 2019-2020 we’re off

[Deleted member 15344]

The AFCON is how many years old?

Does it matter how old it is ? African players didn’t start moving en mass across to leagues until late 90’s

We've moved the world cup because of weather issues. Cameroon will be just as bad.

And all the leagues stop when the World Cup is moved - but I guess you think the leagues should just carry on playing whilst the WC is going on ?

A continental competition that predates the Premier league and the other leagues desire to have African players shouldn't change now.

I didn’t realise that the English League didnt start until after the AFCON - must make that the older comp in world football

This notion tha clubs won't sign african players is a non starter for me. No way should league clubs dicate then intl tournaments are played.

Who pays the wages of the players ? Club or the country ?

If players go away for 6 weeks during a busy crucial period of the season then yes it’s going to affect the clubs and it’s going to make them think twice about signing players , and it’s also possibly going to affect players international decisions with players having to make choices - the clubs that pay their wages or the country

They play this tournament every 2 years - if it was every four years like the others then the impact wouldn’t be as bad but every other year then it’s going to have an impact

 

[Papas1982]

Does it matter how old it is ? African players didn’t start moving en mass across to leagues until late 90’s


And all the leagues stop when the World Cup is moved - but I guess you think the leagues should just carry on playing whilst the WC is going on ?



I didn’t realise that the English League didnt start until after the AFCON - must make that the older comp in world football



Who pays the wages of the players ? Club or the country ?

If players go away for 6 weeks during a busy crucial period of the season then yes it’s going to affect the clubs and it’s going to make them think twice about signing players , and it’s also possibly going to affect players international decisions with players having to make choices - the clubs that pay their wages or the country

They play this tournament every 2 years - if it was every four years like the others then the impact wouldn’t be as bad but every other year then it’s going to have an impact

They play it ever two years because for quite some time they had very little involvement in world Cups I'd imagine.

I didn't say the comp predates any leagues. I said it predates clubs signing African players.

This notion that because a club pays the wages they should have a choice doesn't wash with me. You knew the rules when you signed players. Either accept the rules or dont sign them. Its simply because it's two of your stars it's now an issue. I don't recall such an outcry when it was Diouf getting called up....

As to your flippant comment about the world cup. I don't think it should be where it is being held. Or at the time of year. The World Cup will have most clubs losing a good dozen players so nerds in this case for leagues to. Shut down. Clubs losing 1 or 2 players is totally different.

You never know, maybe the club will sell Salah and Mane over the summer as its such an issue?

 

[Pin-seeker]

Does it matter how old it is ? African players didn’t start moving en mass across to leagues until late 90’s


And all the leagues stop when the World Cup is moved - but I guess you think the leagues should just carry on playing whilst the WC is going on ?



I didn’t realise that the English League didnt start until after the AFCON - must make that the older comp in world football



Who pays the wages of the players ? Club or the country ?

If players go away for 6 weeks during a busy crucial period of the season then yes it’s going to affect the clubs and it’s going to make them think twice about signing players , and it’s also possibly going to affect players international decisions with players having to make choices - the clubs that pay their wages or the country

They play this tournament every 2 years - if it was every four years like the others then the impact wouldn’t be as bad but every other year then it’s going to have an impact

Do you not think clubs thought that maybe the AFCON could go back to its original date?
Do you think teams wouldn’t have signed players if they’d known this,Sarah & Mane for example?

didn’t stop teams having a number of African players in the past & it won’t in the future. Fact ??

 

[Deleted member 15344]

They play it ever two years because for quite some time they had very little involvement in world Cups I'd imagine.

So with the way the game is growing then surely it’s time to look at the international calendar and adjust - have it every four years and also leagues need to adjust to help out - including the CL

I didn't say the comp predates any leagues. I said it predates clubs signing African players.

This notion that because a club pays the wages they should have a choice doesn't wash with me. You knew the rules when you signed players. Either accept the rules or dont sign them. Its simply because it's two of your stars it's now an issue. I don't recall such an outcry when it was Diouf getting called up....

Doesn’t matter if it washes with you or not - it’s the clubs that pay the wages , it’s the clubs that always seem to suffer when it comes to Internationals with - the fans don’t want to see the players they help pay wages for disappear during crucial times of the season whether that’s to help a team win trophies or avoid relegation

And how would you know if there was an outcry in regards Diouf ? I know Rafa wasn’t pleased about losing Sissoko and said it affects his thinking about players that he signs

As to your flippant comment about the world cup. I don't think it should be where it is being held. Or at the time of year. The World Cup will have most clubs losing a good dozen players so nerds in this case for leagues to. Shut down. Clubs losing 1 or 2 players is totally different.

You never know, maybe the club will sell Salah and Mane over the summer as its such an issue?

Why is it flippant ? It’s a tournament being held in the middle of the season for the majority of the leagues - shouldnt matter how many players leave - “clubs have big squads” and can play youth players etc so the league should keep going then if the attitude is “tough” when it comes to the AFCON

And in regards Mane and Salah I have a feeling they will both miss the tournament which is a shame for them and their country.

 

[Papas1982]

So with the way the game is growing then surely it’s time to look at the international calendar and adjust - have it every four years and also leagues need to adjust to help out - including the CL

I agree that leagues could look to it, but at the same time. I’m massively against a winter break. So not sure what can be done it that regard. As to it being every 4 years now, they are still under represented. Last World Cup. 54 UEFA teams entered qualification. 14 were at the comp. 54 CAF teams entered qualification only 5 went to the comp. so why should they forgo regular intl comps when they have less opportunities?

Doesn’t matter if it washes with you or not - it’s the clubs that pay the wages , it’s the clubs that always seem to suffer when it comes to Internationals with - the fans don’t want to see the players they help pay wages for disappear during crucial times of the season whether that’s to help a team win trophies or avoid relegation

The reason wages doesn’t wash with me is simple. Clubs have a choice prior to making a signing. Players will always play for their country. Clubs like to have intl superstars. I wonder how many Egyptians have Liverpool shirts now. Clubs money having a countries superstar. If a club doesn’t like it. Don’t sign the player.

And how would you know if there was an outcry in regards Diouf ? I know Rafa wasn’t pleased about losing Sissoko and said it affects his thinking about players that he signs

So you know, but I can’t? ???

I’d know, or at least can have an opinion on how liverpool are more vocal now because your losing stars, because I can recall arsenal fans who i knew moaning about Toure as he was a big player, I know plenty of Liverpool fans. They didn’t moan as Diof and Salif Dili weren’t important. I don’t need to show you a google report to prove it. It also comes down to he managers attitude. Klopp has made plenty of comments about winter etc. He’s far more vocal, which is his right, but the more he says, the more others will jump on it. I’m not gonna waste my time looking, but I’d be amazed if Rafa hasn’t signed an African player since.

Why is it flippant ? It’s a tournament being held in the middle of the season for the majority of the leagues - shouldnt matter how many players leave - “clubs have big squads” and can play youth players etc so the league should keep going then if the attitude is “tough” when it comes to the AFCON

The reason it’s different for a world cup is simple. A, it’s a one off. Clubs didn’t sign their players knowing there would necessarily be a comp as is the case with Africans, b, the number of players leaving is far more significant than for the AFCON. The English leagues won’t agree to a winter break because a few clubs lose 2 players unlike all losing 10 players for a World Cup. I don’t believe you can’t see the difference, You’re simply trying to use it to make a point that doesn’t exist.

And in regards Mane and Salah I have a feeling they will both miss the tournament which is a shame for them and their country.

Personally I think Salah will miss it. But not because of some sort of loyalty to Liverpool or protest at the time of it. He simply has massive issues with the Egyptian Fa.

Mane will go imo.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I agree that leagues could look to it, but at the same time. I’m massively against a winter break. So not sure what can be done it that regard. As to it being every 4 years now, they are still under represented. Last World Cup. 54 UEFA teams entered qualification. 14 were at the comp. 54 CAF teams entered qualification only 5 went to the comp. so why should they forgo regular intl comps when they have less opportunities?

A winter break is the only way to move forward to stop flogging the players to death - it’s either that or get rid of meaningless friendlies, the players need a break.

A international tournament every other year is too disruptive

The reason wages doesn’t wash with me is simple. Clubs have a choice prior to making a signing. Players will always play for their country. Clubs like to have intl superstars. I wonder how many Egyptians have Liverpool shirts now. Clubs money having a countries superstar. If a club doesn’t like it. Don’t sign the player.

what does selling shirts have to do with clubs being the ones that pay the wages and take the hits ? It’s times for the international federations to start helping out - if they want to take a player away mid season for 6 weeks then they pay for it

So you know, but I can’t? ???

I’d know, or at least can have an opinion on how liverpool are more vocal now because your losing stars, because I can recall arsenal fans who i knew moaning about Toure as he was a big player, I know plenty of Liverpool fans. They didn’t moan as Diof and Salif Dili weren’t important. I don’t need to show you a google report to prove it. It also comes down to he managers attitude. Klopp has made plenty of comments about winter etc. He’s far more vocal, which is his right, but the more he says, the more others will jump on it. I’m not gonna waste my time looking, but I’d be amazed if Rafa hasn’t signed an African player since.

Ah so you have judged by the Liverpool fans you know and you can remember back 15/17 years ago when Diouf and Diao arrived ? As there was no Twitter , Facebook and not many forums around then I’m not sure how you can judge what Liverpool fans were reacting like 17 years ago. rafa signed one African player at Liverpool - Sissoko , no others but thankfully he never went away on a tournament when with us

What’s the google report bit about ? Surely you aren’t be snide are you - ?

The reason it’s different for a world cup is simple. A, it’s a one off. Clubs didn’t sign their players knowing there would necessarily be a comp as is the case with Africans, b, the number of players leaving is far more significant than for the AFCON. The English leagues won’t agree to a winter break because a few clubs lose 2 players unlike all losing 10 players for a World Cup. I don’t believe you can’t see the difference, You’re simply trying to use it to make a point that doesn’t exist.

The difference is clear - I suspect the World could potentially affect your club so the attitude towards it will prob be different - just as I suspect if the AFCON affected your team significantly the attitude

Personally I think Salah will miss it. But not because of some sort of loyalty to Liverpool or protest at the time of it. He simply has massive issues with the Egyptian Fa.

Mane will go imo.

Guess we will see

 

[Papas1982]

A winter break is the only way to move forward to stop flogging the players to death - it’s either that or get rid of meaningless friendlies, the players need a break.

A international tournament every other year is too disruptive

I would happily drop the amount of friendlies. Or the stupid cup of nations. Europeans have an intl comp every two years. Euros and World Cup. Africans basically do the same because they have such little involvement in World Cup.

what does selling shirts have to do with clubs being the ones that pay the wages and take the hits ? It’s times for the international federations to start helping out - if they want to take a player away mid season for 6 weeks then they pay for it

Because wages and revenue are all part of the package. Higher profile players earn a club more and are blatantly considered when wages are decided upon. Image rights are massive now. Salah probably earns more in 6 weeks than the Egyptian Fa make in a season. Maybe players should be paid only when they are representing the club. That way they can decide how much pride they get from being an intl. Imo expecting the nations to pay is just another way for the rich clubs to try to control small nations. How may African federations earn the money premier league clubs earn.

Ah so you have judged by the Liverpool fans you know and you can remember back 15/17 years ago when Diouf and Diao arrived ? As there was no Twitter , Facebook and not many forums around then I’m not sure how you can judge what Liverpool fans were reacting like 17 years ago. rafa signed one African player at Liverpool - Sissoko , no others but thankfully he never went away on a tournament when with us

What’s the google report bit about ? Surely you aren’t be snide are you - ?

It wasn’t snide in the you may think. It was simply preemptive. You tend to ask for proof. I clearly can’t prove that I can recall arsenal fans moaning and Liverpool not. I also meant Rafa in his career since. you’ve said he said it would affect his decisions. I’m curious if it did.
If you really wanna claim that Liverpool were Concerned the. That’s your prerogative. Curious how you could make the]at claim though. What with there being now social media which apparently I need to prove it....

The difference is clear - I suspect the World could potentially affect your club so the attitude towards it will prob be different - just as I suspect if the AFCON affected your team significantly the attitude

Guess we will see

Pretty sure you signed Mane from us. I never wanted the AFCON changed when he was with us. The World Cup was never going to be played mid season (without a break) as it effects EVERY CLUB MASSIVELY. And also unexpectedly. The AFCON isn’t a surprise.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I would happily drop the amount of friendlies. Or the stupid cup of nations. Europeans have an intl comp every two years. Euros and World Cup. Africans basically do the same because they have such little involvement in World Cup.

They aren’t going to drop those though - which is why there is a winter break coming in next season

Europeans have the Euros every four years during the summer when it’s not disruptive Not every two years

African Nations now have 3 every 4

Because wages and revenue are all part of the package. Higher profile players earn a club more and are blatantly considered when wages are decided upon. Image rights are massive now. Salah probably earns more in 6 weeks than the Egyptian Fa make in a season. Maybe players should be paid only when they are representing the club. That way they can decide how much pride they get from being an intl. Imo expecting the nations to pay is just another way for the rich clubs to try to control small nations. How may African federations earn the money premier league clubs earn.

I have no doubt that International teams earn a lot of money of the back of these players - the clubs are the ones that have to suffer regardless of what nation they are in , and ultimately it’s the fans that will suffer because they aren’t seeing the players that are paid by their club playing for the club when they are needed.

It wasn’t snide in the you may think. It was simply preemptive. You tend to ask for proof. I clearly can’t prove that I can recall arsenal fans moaning and Liverpool not. I also meant Rafa in his career since. you’ve said he said it would affect his decisions. I’m curious if it did.
If you really wanna claim that Liverpool were Concerned the. That’s your prerogative. Curious how you could make the]at claim though. What with there being now social media which apparently I need to prove it....

It affected Rafas decisions when at Liverpool with who he signed - he signed one and didn’t sign any other , no idea about other clubs.

I didn’t ask you to prove anything did i ? I was curious to know how a Southampton fan would know how the Liverpool fan base reacted 17 years ago when social media wasn’t at the level it is now or was it judgements based on ones you know .Just as I wouldn’t know what Arsenal fans thought over a decade ago when they had players like Toure

Pretty sure you signed Mane from us. I never wanted the AFCON changed when he was with us. The World Cup was never going to be played mid season (without a break) as it effects EVERY CLUB MASSIVELY. And also unexpectedly. The AFCON isn’t a surprise.

I have no idea what the level Mane was when he was with Southampton and certainly no idea if him going away in 15 had any affect but would you say that no Southampton fan minded him going away mid season if he was a key player ?

But I think it’s clear that you will have the opposite opinion to myself so I guess I’ll step off the roundabout now

 

[Papas1982]

They aren’t going to drop those though - which is why there is a winter break coming in next season

Europeans have the Euros every four years during the summer when it’s not disruptive Not every two years

African Nations now have 3 every 4



I have no doubt that International teams earn a lot of money of the back of these players - the clubs are the ones that have to suffer regardless of what nation they are in , and ultimately it’s the fans that will suffer because they aren’t seeing the players that are paid by their club playing for the club when they are needed.

It affected Rafas decisions when at Liverpool with who he signed - he signed one and didn’t sign any other , no idea about other clubs.

I didn’t ask you to prove anything did i ? I was curious to know how a Southampton fan would know how the Liverpool fan base reacted 17 years ago when social media wasn’t at the level it is now or was it judgements based on ones you know .Just as I wouldn’t know what Arsenal fans thought over a decade ago when they had players like Toure



I have no idea what the level Mane was when he was with Southampton and certainly no idea if him going away in 15 had any affect but would you say that no Southampton fan minded him going away mid season if he was a key player ?

We are just repeating our povs. I dont feel Africans are massively involved in the world cup. Nor do their federations I'd imagine. Hence why they have their comp every two years.

Pretty sure I'd said I can only go by the small amount of Liverpool fans relatively that I knew. But even in media. TV interviews etc. Wenger was the only manager that consistently criticised the the AFCON. Maybe Stu and Pete can put us right either way. Maybe Rafa didn't rate any other african players, or was weary havi g been stung signing too after they had a couple of good games? Not sure the AFCON is the sole reason.

As to Mane. Nope. I genuinely can't recall a single fan complaining. Now that may well be because every AFCON had been played in winter. So we accepted it. Or maybe we were happy to have a star player and accepted it. I've said before that imo fans of smaller clubs are more accepting of intl footy and appreciate it more as generally that's when we get to see a greater collection of good players.

Re the AFCON. My entire pov is simply that changing it last year is the only mistake. They shouldn't have pandered to demands then. That Could at least give some clubs a get out as they presumed it wouod stay that way. I understand the frustration. Obv losing 3 star players (if keita continues to improve) is hard to take.

 

[Slime]

It seems very simple to me.
If a club doesn't want to lose players for the AFCON, don't buy them.
If that means that fewer Africans come to the Premier League, so be it.
I won't lose any sleep and the world will keep on turning.
Maybe the Africans would then feel the need to change things, which is their prerogative .......... not ours.

 

[PJ87]

It seems very simple to me.
If a club doesn't want to lose players for the AFCON, don't buy them.
If that means that fewer Africans come to the Premier League, so be it.
I won't lose any sleep and the world will keep on turning.
Maybe the Africans would then feel the need to change things, which is their prerogative .......... not ours.

Think a lot of fans are forgetting if you try and stop players going they can be banned from playing for their club until the tournament is over with

It's happened before it will happen again

 

[paddyc]

Paddy C live from the Emirates this afternoon.
Live commentary and heckling.
Big game for gooners today.

 

[fundy]

Paddy C live from the Emirates this afternoon.
Live commentary and heckling.
Big game for gooners today.

have fun Pat, hope youre a lucky charm! fancy were in for a tough one

 

[Liverbirdie]

We are just repeating our povs. I dont feel Africans are massively involved in the world cup. Nor do their federations I'd imagine. Hence why they have their comp every two years.

Pretty sure I'd said I can only go by the small amount of Liverpool fans relatively that I knew. But even in media. TV interviews etc. Wenger was the only manager that consistently criticised the the AFCON. Maybe Stu and Pete can put us right either way. Maybe Rafa didn't rate any other african players, or was weary havi g been stung signing too after they had a couple of good games? Not sure the AFCON is the sole reason.

As to Mane. Nope. I genuinely can't recall a single fan complaining. Now that may well be because every AFCON had been played in winter. So we accepted it. Or maybe we were happy to have a star player and accepted it. I've said before that imo fans of smaller clubs are more accepting of intl footy and appreciate it more as generally that's when we get to see a greater collection of good players.

Re the AFCON. My entire pov is simply that changing it last year is the only mistake. They shouldn't have pandered to demands then. That Could at least give some clubs a get out as they presumed it wouod stay that way. I understand the frustration. Obv losing 3 star players (if keita continues to improve) is hard to take.

Liverpool fans never moan about anything, ever, at all.....or at least the match-goers.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

We are just repeating our povs. I dont feel Africans are massively involved in the world cup. Nor do their federations I'd imagine. Hence why they have their comp every two years.

Pretty sure I'd said I can only go by the small amount of Liverpool fans relatively that I knew. But even in media. TV interviews etc. Wenger was the only manager that consistently criticised the the AFCON. Maybe Stu and Pete can put us right either way. Maybe Rafa didn't rate any other african players, or was weary havi g been stung signing too after they had a couple of good games? Not sure the AFCON is the sole reason.

As to Mane. Nope. I genuinely can't recall a single fan complaining. Now that may well be because every AFCON had been played in winter. So we accepted it. Or maybe we were happy to have a star player and accepted it. I've said before that imo fans of smaller clubs are more accepting of intl footy and appreciate it more as generally that's when we get to see a greater collection of good players.

Re the AFCON. My entire pov is simply that changing it last year is the only mistake. They shouldn't have pandered to demands then. That Could at least give some clubs a get out as they presumed it wouod stay that way. I understand the frustration. Obv losing 3 star players (if keita continues to improve) is hard to take.

Who was he stung by ?

And the 2019 AFCON was due to be played in Cameroon when they moved it to the summer and not one African nation opposed the change

And it was moved to put it inline with the European seasons - same with the cup comps

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40657296

There is a bit in the above article where the players want the change as the event in Jan affects their careers

 

[AmandaJR]

Jeez - one of you start a separate thread on the African Cup of Nations or take it to PM

 

[davemc1]

Jeez - one of you start a separate thread on the African Cup of Nations or take it to PM

Wonder what’s got you in a tizzy? ?‍

Who’d of thought Roy is Peps nemisis ?

 

[AmandaJR]

Wonder what’s got you in a tizzy? ?‍

Who’d of thought Roy is Peps nemisis ?

Good spot! Although to be fair the debate was pages long before we pressed the self destruct again!

 

[paddyc]

Paddy C live from the Emirates this afternoon.
Live commentary and heckling.
Big game for gooners today.

Well not a great game or performance
.Poor first half although we grabbed a late goal which wasn't deserved 2bd half much better and controlled the game but never really created any clear chance. Laca and Pepe had shockers. Sheffield well organised. Probably deserved a point. We really need a top quality striker..Laca is not the man.

 

[Papas1982]

Who was he stung by ?

And the 2019 AFCON was due to be played in Cameroon when they moved it to the summer and not one African nation opposed the change

And it was moved to put it inline with the European seasons - same with the cup comps

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40657296

There is a bit in the above article where the players want the change as the event in Jan affects their careers

Wires crossed by me. Forgot it wasnt Rafa that had signed the two Senegalese players.

I’m not surprised the players want it changed. They want to make sure they keep their paymasters happy. So it’s hardly surprising chose to keep the money (European leagues happy).

Nobody at fifa had an issue awarding the World Cup to qatar either. Doesn’t mean it’s the right call. Did you see any of the last AFCON. The footy was awful. I’ve no doubts the weather played its part.

With a continent that size the weather varies so massively that it is always likely to pay a part. It’s rainy season. They obviously have doubts they could fit all the games in during the summer. What happens then?

The bottom of that article even states that many nations would be ruled out of hosting for such reasons.

Anyways. I’m out. I don’t think European nations should dictate when another continent plays its footy. I’ve made that clear. You’ll not change my mind. And vice versus