Swango1980
Well-known member
Hi. Chipping and putting is allowed between the play of 2 holes, but only on or near the last green played or next tee. So, not 165 yards out. And, must not unduly delay play either.
Rule 5.5b
Practice during round
- Thread starter effayjay
- Start date
Rule 5.5b
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Many thanks for reply . Again a genuine question, i dont know the answer, if i picked up or lost the ball say on 9th fairway ..im out of or finished the 9th hole. is" on or near the last green played" the 8th or 9th green.. next tee being the 10th .. its the termi?nology as usual that confuses me
Swango1980
Well-known member
9th. You've just completed the 9th hole, so your last green is the 9th (even though you didn't get a chance to putt on it).
Mind you, I don't think you'd have much chance to walk back to the 8th, the group behind might wonder what you were up to
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
I think , they wonder that most of the time anyway 😊 . Thanks again9th. You've just completed the 9th hole, so your last green is the 9th (even though you didn't get a chance to putt on it).
Mind you, I don't think you'd have much chance to walk back to the 8th, the group behind might wonder what you were up to
rulefan
Tour Winner
I asked a supplementary which I haven't passed on
Q Is there any obligation on the player to declare that he/she is ‘out of it’ before continuing hitting the ball towards the hole? Other than telling his marker when he comes to record the score of course.
A There is no requirement to say they are out of it as it’s really just a point of fact. It is helpful though if the player does say something so that there is no doubt over their actions.
Q Is there any obligation on the player to declare that he/she is ‘out of it’ before continuing hitting the ball towards the hole? Other than telling his marker when he comes to record the score of course.
A There is no requirement to say they are out of it as it’s really just a point of fact. It is helpful though if the player does say something so that there is no doubt over their actions.
Swango1980
Well-known member
At what point did you say they picked up, then put another one down where they liked? I would have given the same answer to that question.
rulefan
Tour Winner
My words to the R&A were that he couldn't find his ball so "he dropped and continued with another ball"
Swango1980
Well-known member
As we are going back and forth, and clearly getting nowhere, mainly due to the stench of insults and same points made over and over, I shall summarise. I will not make any further comment, unless I get official verification from the R&A themselves. Another key point, as I said a long time ago, I don't care what the outcome is, but I do care that whatever the answer, it's watertight. This forum does not provide that, and both sides even admitted ages ago the wording in the rules is dubious.
Having had an almost identical situation to the OP happen at our club, brought up by the players in the group of the guy who it effected, the Committee ruled a 2 shot penalty on next hole for practicing between holes. Given the confusion on this thread, I said I would seek clarification from the R&A. They confirmed the 2 shot penalty was correct. The full question and answer was posted by me on this thread a couple of days ago.
Rulefan and others have since said that the R&A were correct in their answer, but only because the player said they did it for practice. However, no penalty in OP situation because the player said something like "just played one up" rather than actually use the word practice.
Now, forgive me, but I have not taken that stance as gospel. And, hopefully anyone with reasoning skills, will understand my logic. Here goes.
Firstly, I am pretty certain that in both cases, the intentions of the players was the same. Both innocently felt they could just play one up after giving up the hole, whilst their partners continued. But, the Rules of Golf will give one a penalty and the other no penalty based on their use of the English language when they explained what happened? I struggle to accept this.
Secondly, in medal play, if after finishing a hole, a player sees a range ball on next tee, takes a full swing and smacks it back into range, they get a penalty for practicing between holes. It doesn't matter that their intent wasnt to practice, so I'm not sure why the Rules of Golf suddenly become so focused on intent in Stableford?
Intent to practice, in my opinion, is a complete red herring. The key question is "when has a player completed the hole in Stableford?". Because, once a hole is officially completed, then we are between 2 holes, at which point we cannot hit a full shot without it being deemed practice. Rule 21.1b states the following for Stableford:
"A hole is completed when the player holes out, chooses not to do so or when his or her score will result in zero points"
In both my scenario, and the OP it is pretty clear in my mind that "chooses not to do so" applies. The R&A recognised that, in my scenario, this meant the player had completed the hole. So, logically the same MUST surely be true for the OP?
The only thing that I find concerning and confusing with the Rules is the final point to the quote above, "his or her score will result in zero points". Why? Because this would imply if a golfer was playing under all the normal rules, but was simply at a point they could no longer score points, then 21.1b also suggests the hole is complete. However, I always assumed the "this is not a practice stroke" definition in 5.5a was there to protect players in Stableford in that particular scenario. Therefore, it is most likely the wording in that particular rule that needs tidying, so that we can all be certain either way. Or, an Interpretation added to cover this situation.
That is my position as it stands. I've only ever given my opinion on it, but never tried to claim that what I say is fact. Hopefully, I've given a fairly complete, transparent and logical explanation to my opinion, all in one post. I will comment no further, unless I get further clarification, either way, from the R&A. No doubt there will be countless repetitive insults and the same counter points in response to this. However, if anyone with any decency and interest ever stumbles across this thread, if they are really interested what caused the tirade of abuse, they will stumble across this apparently extremely insulting and abusive post by me. Thanks
Having had an almost identical situation to the OP happen at our club, brought up by the players in the group of the guy who it effected, the Committee ruled a 2 shot penalty on next hole for practicing between holes. Given the confusion on this thread, I said I would seek clarification from the R&A. They confirmed the 2 shot penalty was correct. The full question and answer was posted by me on this thread a couple of days ago.
Rulefan and others have since said that the R&A were correct in their answer, but only because the player said they did it for practice. However, no penalty in OP situation because the player said something like "just played one up" rather than actually use the word practice.
Now, forgive me, but I have not taken that stance as gospel. And, hopefully anyone with reasoning skills, will understand my logic. Here goes.
Firstly, I am pretty certain that in both cases, the intentions of the players was the same. Both innocently felt they could just play one up after giving up the hole, whilst their partners continued. But, the Rules of Golf will give one a penalty and the other no penalty based on their use of the English language when they explained what happened? I struggle to accept this.
Secondly, in medal play, if after finishing a hole, a player sees a range ball on next tee, takes a full swing and smacks it back into range, they get a penalty for practicing between holes. It doesn't matter that their intent wasnt to practice, so I'm not sure why the Rules of Golf suddenly become so focused on intent in Stableford?
Intent to practice, in my opinion, is a complete red herring. The key question is "when has a player completed the hole in Stableford?". Because, once a hole is officially completed, then we are between 2 holes, at which point we cannot hit a full shot without it being deemed practice. Rule 21.1b states the following for Stableford:
"A hole is completed when the player holes out, chooses not to do so or when his or her score will result in zero points"
In both my scenario, and the OP it is pretty clear in my mind that "chooses not to do so" applies. The R&A recognised that, in my scenario, this meant the player had completed the hole. So, logically the same MUST surely be true for the OP?
The only thing that I find concerning and confusing with the Rules is the final point to the quote above, "his or her score will result in zero points". Why? Because this would imply if a golfer was playing under all the normal rules, but was simply at a point they could no longer score points, then 21.1b also suggests the hole is complete. However, I always assumed the "this is not a practice stroke" definition in 5.5a was there to protect players in Stableford in that particular scenario. Therefore, it is most likely the wording in that particular rule that needs tidying, so that we can all be certain either way. Or, an Interpretation added to cover this situation.
That is my position as it stands. I've only ever given my opinion on it, but never tried to claim that what I say is fact. Hopefully, I've given a fairly complete, transparent and logical explanation to my opinion, all in one post. I will comment no further, unless I get further clarification, either way, from the R&A. No doubt there will be countless repetitive insults and the same counter points in response to this. However, if anyone with any decency and interest ever stumbles across this thread, if they are really interested what caused the tirade of abuse, they will stumble across this apparently extremely insulting and abusive post by me. Thanks
robinthehood
Hacker
My only point all along is that the op in this thread was wrong,
See same post on wrx, reposted word for word
https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1799623/practice-during-round
Same result.
rulefan
Tour Winner
This is the verification I received from the R&A for a slightly different situation, prior to your posting the response to your your question.
Q In a stableford competition, a member sliced his tee shot about 50 yards on a short par 4. He walked forward but can’t find it and realised it was possibly out of bounds. He dropped and continued with another ball. When asked what he was doing he said words to the effect ‘No score. I’m just playing this ball along with you’.
Does this constitute practice or does 5.5a apply?
A If he’s not followed correct procedure by going back to the tee, then he doesn’t score any points on the hole. Rule 5.5a would apply as the result has already been decided.
Q Is there any obligation on the player to declare that he/she is ‘out of it’ before continuing hitting the ball towards the hole? Other than telling his marker when he comes to record the score of course.
A There is no requirement to say they are out of it as it’s really just a point of fact. It is helpful though if the player does say something so that there is no doubt over their actions.
I will follow this up with the R&A.
Edit: I am awaiting their response now
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robinthehood
Hacker
7-2/1.7 Explanation of “Strokes Played in Continuing the Play of a Hole†Q. Rule 7-2 states that strokes played in continuing the play of a hole, the result of which has been decided, are not practice strokes.
What is meant by “continuing the play of a hole�
A. This phrase covers situations in which a player plays the remainder of the hole with one ball in play. Its interpretation is not restricted to continuing the play of the hole in accordance with the Rules and includes, for example, situations where a player plays a ball from a spot close to where his original ball went out of bounds or in the area where it was lost.
That's the old descision....
And you can find the Mapping Chart to check what happened to the Decision 7-2/1.7 in 2019 here, which tells us it didn't change and is now covered by Rule 5.5a (pasted above):
http://www.walkercup.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Mapping Summary Chart - FINAL - revised 8.16.2019.pdf
The above is shamelessly copied from
WRX
What is meant by “continuing the play of a hole�
A. This phrase covers situations in which a player plays the remainder of the hole with one ball in play. Its interpretation is not restricted to continuing the play of the hole in accordance with the Rules and includes, for example, situations where a player plays a ball from a spot close to where his original ball went out of bounds or in the area where it was lost.
That's the old descision....
And you can find the Mapping Chart to check what happened to the Decision 7-2/1.7 in 2019 here, which tells us it didn't change and is now covered by Rule 5.5a (pasted above):
http://www.walkercup.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Mapping Summary Chart - FINAL - revised 8.16.2019.pdf
The above is shamelessly copied from
WRX
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Backache
Assistant Pro
You sure? I thought returning a ball to a practice area as a courtesy was not deemed a practice stroke, or is that only during a hole?
Colin L
Tour Winner
As long as it is done casually e.g. a one handed swipe, it's not a practice stroke. If you set up and play a full shot as Swango describes, it would be considered a practice stroke. I would suggest, however, this does have something to do with intent. The casual return in a way that is clearly not a normal stroke indicates your sole intention is to return the ball to where it came from. The full shot raises a question about intent. It has the potential of assisting you in your play and penalties are usually in place to deal with potential advantage.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
If setting up to hit a "normal" shot to return a range ball is considered practice it does get the question why, in one scenario mentioned, dropping a ball and "playing up" isn't.....
You're setting up and hitting a ball aren't you..?
Surely if one is a penalty the other must be..?
If you've dropped a ball down to play up to the green, when out of the hole, then it must have the potential to assist you in a future shot....whether your intent is to practice or not.
I'm totally confused as to what I can and can't do now..
rulefan
Tour Winner
Ignore the issue re completing a hole in stableford for the moment.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Re returning a ball to the range or another player, the Rule/Decisions have not changed. 5.5a applies.
5.5a These are not practice strokes:
- Hitting a ball back to a practice area or to another player, when done solely as a courtesy.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The issue here is why the R&A says in its response to Swango, that his situation is covered by Rule 5.5b Practice Strokes Between Two Holes
when the reply to me says 5.5a No Practice Strokes While Playing Hole applies
These are not practice strokes:
- Strokes made by a player in playing out a hole whose result has been decided.
As I say above, I am awaiting clarification from the R&A
robinthehood
Hacker
The rule doesn't mention casual, just as long as your doing it out of courtesy.
I'd agree if someone did a full psr and then took a shot, then that would be practice.
But the action alone of a full swing isn't in itself a problem.
Colin L
Tour Winner
As you say, the new Rule only mentions "out of courtesy" but I would continue to have a problem with a full-blooded shot because of the potential gain to be derived from it. However. I need to take advice on that to be sure.
chrisd
Major Champion
We seem to gloss over the point that I made (and possibly others have too) that if a ball is dropped on the course and just played out, the only rule break is playing from a wrong place for which the addition of penalty strokes wouldn't matter as the player wouldn't score points anyway. So, so long as a player doesn't confess that he is practising he/she is ok - surely?
rulefan
Tour Winner
That was the response I originally got from the R&A. But things may have changed in the meantime
chrisd
Major Champion
That was the response I originally got from the R&A. But things may have changed in the meantime
But just in a practical sense, a new golfer playing in comps early in his golf days may end up walking half the course without playing any golf if the OP is correct - that surely us not the point of a Stableford?
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