Poll: Britain and the EU

[Deleted member 15344]

You might want to pop out for a few weeks...

The answer could be interesting - could be amazed at different options of saying "no"

 

[delc]

Why do you need to split the no vote ?

Because it might give the impression that more people want to leave the EU than want to stay in it!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Because it might give the impression that more people want to leave the EU than want to stay in it!

Eh?

How exactly would it do that -

Its quite simple

5 people want to leave - that means 5 want to leave

3 want to stay in but with some changes
3 further are happy to stay exactly how we are

that makes 6 wanting to staying in and 5 wanting to leave - its not rocket science

So right now in our poll

16 want to leave

47 want to stay in the EU

 

[Foxholer]

Why would there be a need to reduce the amount of red tape if there was'nt a problem in the first place?

Maybe! And maybe not! As that article implied, it's always worthwhile to keep red tape to a minimum - for obvious (cost) reasons, though a certain amount is always necessary! Adding further Red Tape - as would be required in a 'non-free-trade' relationship - adds cost! It's that concept that you don't seem to be able to recognise! The reason it is being raised is that it adds costs for the businesses (eg. the Spanish Orange Grower/Exporter) which will then be passed - either directly or through 'normal' Market forces - to the UK consumer! And the same will apply in the other direction!

That, and my shock at how you cannot see this obvious result, is the only point I was making!

...
Thirdly. I think they are complaining because there's too much bureaucracy within the EU. Again I am sure you could show me plenty of links to the contrary, but thats up to individuals to find as much info as possible and make an informed decision.
...

An invention all from your own imagination! Without any justification from me, as I have offered no opinion on that!

You haven't answered the questions I asked you in my previous post. The answers should guide you through to the conclusion that 'it's all about increasing/reducing costs!'!

 

[SocketRocket]

Essentially the 'yes I like to stay in the EU' is split three ways, but the no vote is not split at all!

This was my poll and I set the options around what people thought about closer political union between the UK and the EU. I put an option asking if you would prefer us to leave as some will probably be unhappy with any level of union.

I suggest that if anyone wants a poll around whether we should vote 'Yes' or 'No' to the fore coming referendum then they start their own poll.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Why would there be more red tape if we left the EU? Wouldn't we simply lose the current red tape and add different red tape. Not being argumentative it's a genuine question as I'm interested and don't know.

Also, where is the best place to get independent information on the benefits of staying in/leaving the EU. All the info I've read so far has been biased one way or the other depending on the writer.

 

[MarkE]

Maybe! And maybe not! As that article implied, it's always worthwhile to keep red tape to a minimum - for obvious (cost) reasons, though a certain amount is always necessary! Adding further Red Tape - as would be required in a 'non-free-trade' relationship - adds cost! It's that concept that you don't seem to be able to recognise! The reason it is being raised is that it adds costs for the businesses (eg. the Spanish Orange Grower/Exporter) which will then be passed - either directly or through 'normal' Market forces - to the UK consumer! And the same will apply in the other direction!

That, and my shock at how you cannot see this obvious result, is the only point I was making!

No, that's yor opinion, not fact. I have an opposing opinion. Just because i don't agree with you dos'nt mean I don't understand the concept. My shock is that you don't seem to accept that what you see as an 'obvoius result' is different to what I see happening. Nobody's right or wrong. Opinion.

An invention all from your own imagination! Without any justification from me, as I have offered no opinion on that!

You haven't answered the questions I asked you in my previous post. The answers should guide you through to the conclusion that 'it's all about increasing/reducing costs!'!

Whats that all about, you asked regarding red tape 'Why do you think they are complaining?' and I answered.

Your final questions,
'What will the effect on cost to the consumer be? Now add more bureaucracy and paperwork and what will the effect on the price to the consumer be?'
I honestly don't know, but crucially, neither do you. All about informed opinions. But then I hav'nt asked you to answer specific questions that no one can definitively answer. Mainly because i'm not interested what your take on the matter is, i'll make up my own mind.:thup:

 

[Foxholer]

No, that's yor opinion, not fact. I have an opposing opinion. Just because i don't agree with you dos'nt mean I don't understand the concept. My shock is that you don't seem to accept that what you see as an 'obvoius result' is different to what I see happening. Nobody's right or wrong. Opinion.





Whats that all about, you asked regarding red tape 'Why do you think they are complaining?' and I answered.

Your final questions,
'What will the effect on cost to the consumer be? Now add more bureaucracy and paperwork and what will the effect on the price to the consumer be?'
I honestly don't know, but crucially, neither do you. All about informed opinions. But then I hav'nt asked you to answer specific questions that no one can definitively answer. Mainly because i'm not interested what your take on the matter is, i'll make up my own mind.:thup:

:rofl: :rofl:

Seems I was right with my 'you don't belong.....' statement! Go check out 'Supply Side Economics'! Even those that use different models for driving an economy, agree that the cutting red tape (regulation) decreases costs to consumers - and likewise increasing it increases cost to consumer!

 

[SocketRocket]

I doubt if there would be any significant change in administration within a free trade zone. This tends to be the case where import and export tariffs are in force.

 

[MarkE]

:rofl: :rofl:

Seems I was right with my 'you don't belong.....' statement! Go check out 'Supply Side Economics'! Even those that use different models for driving an economy, agree that the cutting red tape (regulation) decreases costs to consumers - and likewise increasing it increases cost to consumer!

Seems I was right that you don't believe anyone can have a different opinion to yours. Still, the more people trying to force their opinions down other peoples throats, as fact, can only enhance the chances of the NO vote.:whoo:

 

[Foxholer]

I doubt if there would be any significant change in administration within a free trade zone. This tends to be the case where import and export tariffs are in force.

What Free Trade Zone are you talking about?

If you are talking about the current EU one and should UK exit the EU, UK would simply (automatically) become a Non-EU country and subject to import and export quotas and tariffs just like every other non-EU/EEA country.

 

[SocketRocket]

What Free Trade Zone are you talking about?

If you are talking about the current EU one and should UK exit the EU, UK would simply (automatically) become a Non-EU country and subject to import and export quotas and tariffs just like every other non-EU/EEA country.

I mean the Free Trade Zone we would attempt/probably would negotiate with the EU. It would not be in the interest of the EU to place trading barriers on the UK as this would lead to reciprocal barriers where the EU would fair badly due to their trading surplus with us.

 

[Foxholer]

I mean the Free Trade Zone we would attempt/probably would negotiate with the EU. It would not be in the interest of the EU to place trading barriers on the UK as this would lead to reciprocal barriers where the EU would fair badly due to their trading surplus with us.

That's putting an enormous amount amount of faith in the ability to negotiate such a deal!

While I can certainly see advantages for both sides in doing so, I can see a huge reluctance on the EU's part to allow that to happen, as it would create such a dangerous (not quite) precedent! The situation with Switzerland (creating migramt quotas as the result of a 2014 referendum and the likely consequent scrapping of their Free Trade Deal because of the guillotine clause that activates 6 months after renunciation/non-renewal after any one of the associated deals) is likely to come to a head in 2017 also! As the free movement of people is such a fundamental tenet of EU, I don't see them moving on that issue!

Leaving the EU is a huge step to take (though a simple one to call for!) in order to 'solve' a 'problem' that is actually something that many Conservatives don't really believe is actually a very large problem! After all, opening up (labour) markets is one of their tenets! There are 'better' ways to have a relatively free labour market and still control immigration imo, even within the EU environment!

What a 'No' vote might do is actually shake up the EU to such a degree that there may be changes. But by that time, UK would have withdrawn, so it would be too late for UK!

 

[MegaSteve]

I voted not to join and I will be voting to come out...

Believe I am going to be disappointed a second time...

 

[SocketRocket]

That's putting an enormous amount amount of faith in the ability to negotiate such a deal!

While I can certainly see advantages for both sides in doing so, I can see a huge reluctance on the EU's part to allow that to happen, as it would create such a dangerous (not quite) precedent! The situation with Switzerland (creating migramt quotas as the result of a 2014 referendum and the likely consequent scrapping of their Free Trade Deal because of the guillotine clause that activates 6 months after renunciation/non-renewal after any one of the associated deals) is likely to come to a head in 2017 also! As the free movement of people is such a fundamental tenet of EU, I don't see them moving on that issue!

Leaving the EU is a huge step to take (though a simple one to call for!) in order to 'solve' a 'problem' that is actually something that many Conservatives don't really believe is actually a very large problem! After all, opening up (labour) markets is one of their tenets! There are 'better' ways to have a relatively free labour market and still control immigration imo, even within the EU environment!

What a 'No' vote might do is actually shake up the EU to such a degree that there may be changes. But by that time, UK would have withdrawn, so it would be too late for UK!

I believe the UK would be in a position of strength to negotiate a suitable trade arrangement with the EU. If the EU wished to create trade barriers then as I suggested they would not profit from it. The UK would be free to set trade arrangements Worldwide and I also believe we would be very good at negotiating such deals.

The free movement of labour in the EU will create further issues in the UK as more countries with poor living standards are allowed to join. Turkey for example with a population of around 77 million could create the largest movement of people to the UK than we have experienced to date. Unless the EU can accept that the free movement of labour cannot be an automatic method for mass migration from poor countries to richer ones without some sensible points based system then it will eventually hoist it's self by it's own petard.

 

[Foxholer]

...
The free movement of labour in the EU will create further issues in the UK as more countries with poor living standards are allowed to join. Turkey for example with a population of around 77 million could create the largest movement of people to the UK than we have experienced to date. Unless the EU can accept that the free movement of labour cannot be an automatic method for mass migration from poor countries to richer ones without some sensible points based system then it will eventually hoist it's self by it's own petard.

Can you explain why it's only a problem for UK? France and Germany in particular, and especially should Turkey join, should have a similar 'problem'! Yet there doesn't seem to be any reported problem! There are also other EU members with considerably higher percentage of (EU) immigrants that don't seem to have the same problems as UK!

Are those countries simply more accepting of the Free Movement laws? Have they restricted their access to benefits, so that while they contribute to the economy they are fine, but are effectively chucked out when they no longer contribute? Or is it merely classic UK News Media Xenephobia that is driving the issue!

 

[SocketRocket]

Can you explain why it's only a problem for UK? France and Germany in particular, and especially should Turkey join, should have a similar 'problem'! Yet there doesn't seem to be any reported problem! There are also other EU members with considerably higher percentage of (EU) immigrants that don't seem to have the same problems as UK!

Are those countries simply more accepting of the Free Movement laws? Have they restricted their access to benefits, so that while they contribute to the economy they are fine, but are effectively chucked out when they no longer contribute? Or is it merely classic UK News Media Xenephobia that is driving the issue!

I didn't really suggest that it would not be a problem for other countries as I am more concerned with what happens here. I do know that many Germans are not happy with immigration levels and I believe there is a growing discontent in France and Italy. Many other EU countries (Eastern European in particular) are happy with the current arrangements as their people have done well from freedom of movement, also not many people want to go to live in their countries as the wages/benefits are low and they don't seem to welcome multiculturalism.

Many countries do have lower access to benefits which are much less generous. A problem I see is in the number of low skilled people who work here on minimum wage and as such pay little or no income tax but receive benefits like tax credits, housing allowance and child benefits (sometimes even when their children have never been to the UK) These benefits can boost their wage by around £10K per annum. It's a massive pull factor to people we don't really need and drives down wages for the poorest in our country.

 

[Foxholer]

I didn't really suggest that it would not be a problem for other countries as I am more concerned with what happens here. I do know that many Germans are not happy with immigration levels and I believe there is a growing discontent in France and Italy. Many other EU countries (Eastern European in particular) are happy with the current arrangements as their people have done well from freedom of movement, also not many people want to go to live in their countries as the wages/benefits are low and they don't seem to welcome multiculturalism.

Many countries do have lower access to benefits and their benefits are much less generous. A problem I see is in the number of low skilled people who work here on minimum wage and as such pay little or no income tax but receive benefits like tax credits, housing allowance and child benefits (sometimes even when their children have never been to the UK) These benefits can boost their wage by around £10K per annum. It's a massive pull factor to people we don't really need and drives down wages for the poorest in our country.

Then surely negotiation WITHIN the EU about (or even simply imposition of) restrictions to such benefits would be more effective to solving this 'problem'! And a 'common' approach with Germany, France and the other countries with the issue would be an vastly simpler way!

To me, it's another example of why using the Tax system is an extremely clumsy/cumbersome method of providing such benefits!

 

[SocketRocket]

Then surely negotiation WITHIN the EU about (or even simply imposition of) restrictions to such benefits would be more effective to solving this 'problem'! And a 'common' approach with Germany, France and the other countries with the issue would be an vastly simpler way!

Isn't that what we are trying to do? The problem is that all 27 other states have to agree and somehow I cant see that happening.

 

[MegaSteve]

David Davis opined, recently, that immigration levels aren't on DaveCam's shopping list...

Feel that's going to disappoint 1 or 2...