Poll: Britain and the EU

[MarkE]

So UKIP have important task of ensuring that the referendum is run fairly, but with their minimal representation in Westminster (and I'm not convinced that Carswell won't get fed up at some point!) that is going to be tough to do from their position.

I think there are good arguments to be made on either side, but the 'No' campaign I feel is going to be ruled by those with the loudest voices and perhaps not most sensible arguments - perhaps turning more people over to 'Yes'.

I agree. But folk can deride UKIP as much as they like, but without them we would never have got a referendum and at least a chance to have our say.

 

[jp5]

I agree. But folk can deride UKIP as much as they like, but without them we would never have got a referendum and at least a chance to have our say.

Oh I'm certainly not deriding UKIP. They have a massively important role to play, not just with regards to the referendum but other issues such as proportional representation. 4 million votes for 1 seat!

I think the party could have done with moving on from Farage though. They have some intelligent politicians who are able to convey their opinions articulately and without rhetoric - Stephen Woolfe for me would be an excellent leader. Anyone that bluntly dismisses UKIP as racist is for me guilty of the very misdemeanors that they accuse UKIP of!

 

[MarkE]

Oh I'm certainly not deriding UKIP. They have a massively important role to play, not just with regards to the referendum but other issues such as proportional representation. 4 million votes for 1 seat!

I think the party could have done with moving on from Farage though. They have some intelligent politicians who are able to convey their opinions articulately and without rhetoric - Stephen Woolfe for me would be an excellent leader. Anyone that bluntly dismisses UKIP as racist is for me guilty of the very misdemeanors that they accuse UKIP of!

Well put. I'm sure when it came down to it, Farage lost Ukip some important support. He was the sort of character needed to galvanize a new party, but if they want to progress it's got to be with somone else at the helm.

 

[Foxholer]

But where is the evidence for this? The UK would still trade with the EU if we were out of it, as it does with the rest of the world and would be able to negotiate it's own trade agreements. The EU would'nt suddenly stop trading with the UK, it wants our trade.
Business, anyway, is just a small part of what the EU has become.

The cost of doing this business - even if the actual tariff is still zero - will increase because of the additional bureaucracy/paperwork involved! Therefore, some of those businesses exporting will not bother to export (either simply because they don't want that increased cost, or that cost makes them un-competitive) and the cost to the UK consumer of products imported will increase - to reflect the increased costs to EU members.

Btw. This thread is about Britain and the EU - not about UKIP! While somewhat associated, if you want to discuss UKIP/PR etc, please create a 'The Future of UKIP' or similar thread!

 

[MarkE]

The cost of doing this business - even if the actual tariff is still zero - will increase because of the additional bureaucracy/paperwork involved! Therefore, some of those businesses exporting will not bother to export (either simply because they don't want that increased cost, or that cost makes them un-competitive) and the cost to the UK consumer of products imported will increase - to reflect the increased costs to EU members.

Are you sure? The EU has smothered everything in red tape over the last couple of decades. Theres no evidence that a box of oranges from Spain will cost any more from outside the EU.

 

[Foxholer]

Are you sure? The EU has smothered everything in red tape over the last couple of decades. Theres no evidence that a box of oranges from Spain will cost any more from outside the EU.

There will be ADDITIONAL red tape! So that box of oranges from Spain WILL cost more!

If you can't see that, then you shouldn't be in this discussion!

And can you produce some evidence of the red tape the EU has smothered everything in - that affects those Spanish Oranges coming into UK?

 

[jp5]

Btw. This thread is about Britain and the EU - not about UKIP! While somewhat associated, if you want to discuss UKIP/PR etc, please create a 'The Future of UKIP' or similar thread!

As MarkE pointed out, we wouldn't be having a referendum if it weren't for the rise of UKIP, so more than right to mention them in discussion :thup:

 

[Ethan]

I will be voting yes, to stay in the EU, and I don't have much of a problem with greater political union either, to be honest.

The EU is far from perfect and needs some change, but many of the objections raised by opponents are completely spurious or simply false. The EU has a major role in trade, for sure, but its role in loads of other things from medicines regulation to safety in the workplace and scientific innovation is critical too.

Leaving the EU would be a suicidally stupid thing to do. It is a disgrace that the Tories, most of whom want to stay and understand the insanity of leaving, are willing to play these brinkmanship games with the EU and plunge the economy into uncertainty in order to deal with their political opponents on the right.

 

[jp5]

Leaving the EU would be a suicidally stupid thing to do. It is a disgrace that the Tories, most of whom want to stay and understand the insanity of leaving, are willing to play these brinkmanship games with the EU and plunge the economy into uncertainty in order to deal with their political opponents on the right.

I think not having a referendum would be worse in the long term. Tensions would grow, divides would widen, and denying people a say would disillusion people's interests in politics further.

I fully expect most people will be sensible enough to realise the benefits of staying within the EU, and the risks of leaving. The issue can be put to bed for a generation (unlike Scotland there won't be appetite for another referendum within a few years).

 

[MarkE]

There will be ADDITIONAL red tape! So that box of oranges from Spain WILL cost more!

If you can't see that, then you shouldn't be in this discussion!

So your argument is basically, if anyone dos'nt agree with you they should'nt have an opinion. It's great living in a democracy ain't it?

If I want to mention Ukip, in a discussion on the EU, I will.

Oh and ther's no need to SHOUT.:whoo:

 

[Foxholer]

So your argument is basically, if anyone dos'nt agree with you they should'nt have an opinion. It's great living in a democracy ain't it?

Tosh!

Where did I say that? As in 'Show me the evidence'!

And have you got that 'smothered in red tape' evidence yet?

 

[MarkE]

I believe you said 'If you can't see that, then you shouldn't be in this discussion!'. Well, I can't seet that, so according to you I should'nt be in the discussion. Sounds pretty much like you are saying my opinion is not relevant.
Whereas, myself, I welcome all opinions, even yours, even though you are wrong.

 

[Foxholer]

As MarkE pointed out, we wouldn't be having a referendum if it weren't for the rise of UKIP, so more than right to mention them in discussion :thup:

Perhaps (probably even) we wouldn't. But the discussion of UKIP was more about Farage and UKIP's future, not 'Britain and the EU'!

I believe you said 'If you can't see that, then you shouldn't be in this discussion!'. Well, I can't seet that, so according to you I should'nt be in the discussion. Sounds pretty much like you are saying my opinion is not relevant.
Whereas, myself, I welcome all opinions, even yours, even though you are wrong.

Note the highlighted words!

And No, I'm not saying your opinion isn't relevant! After all (I assume) you will be able to vote in the Referendum, so your opinion IS relevant!

I'm merely pointing out the likely misconceptions! Based on Economic principles.

And please provide some (factual) evidence that I am wrong? I will be happy to adjust my knowledge if you can do so!

Speaking of evidence....How's that 'smothered in red tape' evidence coming along?

 

[jp5]

Perhaps (probably even) we wouldn't. But the discussion of UKIP was more about Farage and UKIP's future, not 'Britain and the EU'!

It was a few sentences leading on from the importance UKIP have played in bringing about a referendum, and what will happen running up to said referendum.

Perhaps slightly tangential, but now the back and forth over whether it was relevant has continued significantly longer, and bears even less relevance to the EU referendum! Probably best just to have let it slide initially :thup:

 

[MarkE]

I've noted the highlighted words and can't see what distinction you are trying to make. You pointed the remarks towards myself, so I stand by my reply.

There's misconceptions on both sides of the argument.

As for evidence, a quick google will do it. This links confirms that even brussels now admit that red tape, for want of a better term, is hindering business.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...verhauling-rulemaking-procedure-10261983.html
and the goverments own website. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cut-eu-red-tape-report-from-the-business-taskforce

 

[Foxholer]

I've noted the highlighted words and can't see what distinction you are trying to make. You pointed the remarks towards myself, so I stand by my reply.

There's misconceptions on both sides of the argument.

As for evidence, a quick google will do it. This links confirms that even brussels now admit that red tape, for want of a better term, is hindering business.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...verhauling-rulemaking-procedure-10261983.html
and the goverments own website. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cut-eu-red-tape-report-from-the-business-taskforce

Ah! Real evidence! Though not entirely 'smothered', and it documents efforts to actually minimise/reduce the amount of 'red tape' that is required!

It was only 'You' I was directing the statement to - not 'anybody' that you applied!

And the evidence you supplied simply reinforces my argument! Answer the following questions.....Why do you think they are complaining? What will the effect on cost to the consumer be? Now add more bureaucracy and paperwork and what will the effect on the price to the consumer be?

 

[MarkE]

Ah! Real evidence! Though not entirely 'smothered', and it documents efforts to actually minimise/reduce the amount of 'red tape' that is required!

It was only 'You' I was directing the statement to - not 'anybody' that you applied!

And the evidence you supplied simply reinforces my argument! Answer the following questions.....Why do you think they are complaining? What will the effect on cost to the consumer be? Now add more bureaucracy and paperwork and what will the effect on the price to the consumer be?

Why would there be a need to reduce the amount of red tape if there was'nt a problem in the first place? The point I was making was is that it's easy to go online and with a few clicks find info to suit your own needs, either for or aginst EU membership.

I still don't see where your coming from on the next point. Your actual words, directed at myself were, 'If you can't see that, then you shouldn't be in this discussion!', indicating that you thought I had nothing valid to bring to the discussion. I answered accordingly.

Thirdly. I think they are complaining because there's too much bureaucracy within the EU. Again I am sure you could show me plenty of links to the contrary, but thats up to individuals to find as much info as possible and make an informed decision.
Those links detail what is needed to reform the EU. I really don't care for reform, we should be outside the EU so their red tape would be irrelevant to us.

These are my own long standing views on the EU, yours are obviously very different to mine. As it should be.

 

[delc]

That is how a vote would work. How many options for "leaving completely" would you like?

Essentially the 'yes I like to stay in the EU' is split three ways, but the no vote is not split at all!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Essentially the 'yes I like to stay in the EU' is split three ways, but the no vote is not split at all!

Why do you need to split the no vote ?

 

[Hobbit]

Why do you need to split the no vote ?

You might want to pop out for a few weeks...