D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
As someone who is pro Yes but with some changes your point above also concerns me. Too many pre-conceived decisions have been made, particularly IMO on the No side.
Poll: Britain and the EU
- Thread starter SocketRocket
- Start date
As someone who is pro Yes but with some changes your point above also concerns me. Too many pre-conceived decisions have been made, particularly IMO on the No side.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
That worries me too. And I fear preconceived notions based upon misconceptions and misunderstandings - even over basic things like the relationship between the ECHR and the EU. So leaving the EU gets us out of our obligations to the ECHR and means we could more easily dump the Human Rights Act etc etc.
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
This is where I become annoyed with those politicians who suggest that the electorate are not sufficiently well informed to make a decision.
Whose fault is that?
The anti-Europeans have been happy to go along with the "straight bananas" type of story to support their xenophobic stance whilst the pro- Europe side have expected the public to accept that membership of the EU is good for the country simply because they say so.
Why can neither side not trust us with the facts?
Foxholer
Blackballed
Because, I'm sorry to say, in the main they are actually correct! Something around 85% plus of the electorate have almost certainly already made up their minds - and no amount of 'reasoned debate' is going to change their views! It's why Propoganda works and it's why/how much/most of the UK Press works!
jp5
Q-School Graduate
I don't think politicians don't trust the public with the facts, it's that you need to hold a degree (or at least a modicum of interest) in politics/economics etc. to comprehend them.
You only have to look at how many people bought the lie that Labour caused the recession to see how effective propaganda is over straight talk.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
I don't think people blame Labour for creating the Banking Crash (other than not having suitable financial controls in place) It's more their overspending in the Public Sector that people criticise them for.
So maybe the vote should be reserved for people with Degrees (or better) in Economics and Politics. Who exactly should keep the General Public informed without bias then?
Foxholer
Blackballed
A good degree of cynicism is all that's really required!
Knowledge of Economics on the other hand can be both helpful and a hindrance imo. It's certainly not an 'exact' science!
:thup: A perfect example!
Absolutely not! What do they know about the NHS for example. Include Doctors? Universal suffrage is the proper way as everybody is affected by the results, so deserves a say!
That should be the role of the News Media! But there's a distinct problem with that in UK! If both sides of the debate present their views, then it's fairly simple for those folk that want to compare the arguments to do so!
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D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
I am afraid that only supports the politicians in their belief that they know what is best for us and have no obligation to consult the electorate.
In view of the fact that the Commons is now almost exclusively occupied by those with no life experiences other than being professional politicians it is, in my view, very disturbing.
And what is wrong with providing fact based evidence to support their arguments, a degree is not an essential requirement to understand the debate.
I don't blame Labour for the global economic crash. What I do feel was unforgiveable was the absolutely crazy spending spree they went on, including selling off gold reserves, during a boom when they could have saved some for a rainy day. Sheer irresponsible madness!
I do hope that the facts behind the why stay/leave the EU are given to the electorate in an open, honest and unbiased way. The electorate is more intelligent than it gets credence for. And even if it isn't sure of the facts, it often knows when its being led up the garden path. Its that sort of arrogance that will lead to votes being cast in spite of not because of the reasons to stay/leave.
Personally, I think it will be a vote to stay in, similarly to the Scottish referendum vote last year. Politicians will play on people's fears of the unknown, as was done last year. But, equally, if the promises made to the electorate for their vote to stay in don't come to fruition we'll see similar back lashes that were evident in the GE voting in Scotland. If the Govt of the day doesn't deliver, you can guarantee the opposition parties will have a field day.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
A number of things that were going to be addressed seem to have gone quiet lately. Less EU interference with Business was one and especially the 'Working Hours' Directive.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Well, the Poll is now closed and it seems that the majority of voters are not content with the UK moving towards closer political union. I am somewhat surprised by the number of votes to leave the EU period; although I know someone will put that down to Golfers being a load of old stuffed shirts 
Anyhow, thanks for voting and go careful out there
Anyhow, thanks for voting and go careful out there
Foxholer
Blackballed
Well, the Poll is now closed and it seems that the majority of voters are not content with the UK moving towards closer political union. I am somewhat surprised by the number of votes to leave the EU period; although I know someone will put that down to Golfers being a load of old stuffed shirts
Anyhow, thanks for voting and go careful out there
It was hardly a 'great' poll!
The only conclusion that can be drawn from it was that 23 of the 79 ( approx 30%) wanted to leave - as everybody else (the 56 approx 70%) that don't want to leave had to make a choice as to which of the 3 'stay' options they actually preferred! What surprises you about that number?
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SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
But I fear many will not listen to the debate though they might hear it. Over the last 5yrs they have been fed specific 'lines' as truth by the right wing press - and that 'truth' has shaped their opinions - which are now set. Changing these opinions will be very, very difficult as any attempt to counter these 'truths' with 'facts' will be met with 'well you/they would say that' and 'politicians of the main parties - all the same - bunch of liars - why should I believe anything that they say' type responses I can hear it now.
A 70% YES vote would be fantastic. But doubt it will come to pass.
Well, the Poll is now closed and it seems that the majority of voters are not content with the UK moving towards closer political union. I am somewhat surprised by the number of votes to leave the EU period; although I know someone will put that down to Golfers being a load of old stuffed shirts
Anyhow, thanks for voting and go careful out there
But what happens when Cameron doesn't get all he asked for? How will people vote then?
He's stuck between a rock and a hard place. What if he doesn't tell the electorate what changes he's asking for? At least then he could say he got every thing he asked for, whatever he gets. But if he does tell the electorate what he's negotiating for, and doesn't get it...
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I think you are right in this being an issue - and that there is an expectation out there about what renegotiating means - and it might not be as significant in some aspects as many think - in fact it might not amount to a great deal to the man-in-the-street.
Ethan
Money List Winner
Don't worry. Whatever Cameron does get will be presented as all that he wanted, Labour will agree and only UKIP will object but they were always going to do so. Only a few Eurosceptic Tories will provide serious objection and Cameron will either buy them off or alienate them.
You're not wrong there, but its not parliament that will be deciding the outcome of the referendum. They can only hope to influence it.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
"Hardly a great poll"! What the hell do you expect off a 'Golf forum'! :rofl: It's not exactly the Poll of Polls, is it ?
You didn't apear to read my previous comment did you. I never set the poll as whether people wanted to stay in our come out of the EU, I wanted to see whether they would like more or less political union. I made one option for people who didn't want either and would rather we left.
How can you say the ones who voted for less political union want to stay, they will probably decide based on whether the Government can negotiate something that meets their concerns.
To answer your question on why I may be surprised by the number who voted to leave; it was because I didn't think so many would vote that way. I guess I am allowed to be surprised by it
Foxholer
Blackballed
In a great many ways, that's a good thing! What 'Parliament decides' is so often simply what the Prime Minister decides, then sells to Cabinet and has the Whips push through! Perhaps not quite so easy here with such a small majority. Even arguing that a Party in power simply has a mandate to do whatever is in their Manifesto isn't an absolute given, as many will have picked the party in spite of some parts of the Manifesto that they don't like/want!
@SILH. True to an extent, but as MetalMickie posted, you are denigrating the 'intelligence' of the electorate!
As I stated, the ONLY conclusion you can really make is about those that want to leave!
But you have answered your own question!
They (currently) don't 'want to leave', therefore (currently) either want or are prepared to stay!And that's why it's 'not a great poll' - little can be gleaned from any of the results - except 1!
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SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
I didn't ask one. I rather pointed out the flaw in your reasoning.
