Plugged in a bunker face

[mashleyR7]

Todays playing partner was in a deep bunker, he hit his shot into the face of the bunker and it plugged, unplayable. What is the correct ruling, course of action, drop scenarios etc please?

 

[rulefan]

Todays playing partner was in a deep bunker, he hit his shot into the face of the bunker and it plugged, unplayable. What is the correct ruling, course of action, drop scenarios etc please?

How was the face constructed?
Was it sand, revetted turf, grass or bare earth?

 

[salfordlad]

Todays playing partner was in a deep bunker, he hit his shot into the face of the bunker and it plugged, unplayable. What is the correct ruling, course of action, drop scenarios etc please?

Unplayable ball in bunker options are at Rule 19.3, have at it and come back if that doesn't answer all your questions.

 

[rulie]

Unplayable ball in bunker options are at Rule 19.3, have at it and come back if that doesn't answer all your questions.

rulefan's questions were to ascertain whether the ball was still in the bunker or was in the general area. The options available, and potential penalties, are different depending on the area of the course the ball lies.

 

[salfordlad]

rulefan's questions were to ascertain whether the ball was still in the bunker or was in the general area. The options available, and potential penalties, are different depending on the area of the course the ball lies.

Of course, I appreciate that. My response to the OP seeks to help the person along the rules learning journey by offering a pointer in the right direction, should that be something mashleyR7 wishes to explore. These approaches are complementary.
I'm sure you would agree, it is a good thing if golfers gain greater familiarity with the Rules and reading the book/app etc is a positive step to that end.

 

[rulie]

Of course, I appreciate that. My response to the OP seeks to help the person along the rules learning journey by offering a pointer in the right direction, should that be something mashleyR7 wishes to explore. These approaches are complementary.
I'm sure you would agree, it is a good thing if golfers gain greater familiarity with the Rules and reading the book/app etc is a positive step to that end.

Agree, but your response was only applicable if the ball was in the bunker. The location of the ball in questions is not yet clear, hence Rulefan's clarifying question.

 

[rulefan]

Having established the situation I was then going to indicate the the right direction and point out the significance of my question but here it is anyway.

Bunker
A specially prepared area of sand, which is often a hollow from which turf or soil was removed.

These are not part of a bunker:

• A lip, wall or face at the edge of a prepared area and consisting of soil, grass, stacked turf or artificial materials,
• Soil or any growing or attached natural object inside the edge of a prepared area (such as grass, bushes or trees),
• Sand that has spilled over or is outside the edge of a prepared area, and
• All other areas of sand on the course that are not inside the edge of a prepared area (such as deserts and other natural sand areas or areas sometimes referred to as waste areas).

See also Rule 12.1
https://www.usga.org/content/usga/h...ons.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=12

 

[mashleyR7]

Thanks, so reading the post above he wasn't in the bunker, he had played from a prepared area and his ball was now plugged in the wall of the bunker that has unprepared sand, grass and soil creating the bank on which the green sits. This is where the person took their drop.

 

[salfordlad]

Thanks, so reading the post above he wasn't in the bunker, he had played from a prepared area and his ball was now plugged in the wall of the bunker that has unprepared sand, grass and soil creating the bank on which the green sits. This is where the person took their drop.

The information you provide here - "plugged in the wall of the bunker that has unprepared sand, grass and soil..." - is suggestive but not definitive for whether the ball is in a bunker or not. Steeper bunker faces that start as sand but which washes down (rain, watering systems etc), that are not maintained well and end up with a mix of bare soil, vegetation growing and some sand do not change status from bunker to not bunker purely because they have 'unprepared' sand. So there will be a simple fact-based answer to the question whether the ball was in the bunker, which could be simply affirmed by a rules-knowledgeable person on the spot.
If the ground where the ball is embedded is not bunker, the applicable rule is 16.3 which permits a free drop in the relief area defined by that rule. If that ground is within the limits of the bunker, the applicable rule is 19.3, which comes at a cost of one penalty stroke.

 

[salfordlad]

Agree, but your response was only applicable if the ball was in the bunker. The location of the ball in questions is not yet clear, hence Rulefan's clarifying question.

To repeat myself: I understand precisely why Rulefan asked those questions. I don't understand why you seem to want to contest the logic of encouraging someone with a rules scenario question to read further background on the related rules.

 

[rulie]

Your first response, where you referenced Rule 19.3, was. imo, incomplete and/or assumed the ball was in the bunker. Your second response, where you reference both 16.3 and 19.3, is more complete.

 

[salfordlad]

Your first response, where you referenced Rule 19.3, was. imo, incomplete and/or assumed the ball was in the bunker. Your second response, where you reference both 16.3 and 19.3, is more complete.

LOL, you seem to have invented your own first post. The one I read said (some emphasis added to assist you) "Todays playing partner was in a deep bunker, he hit his shot INTO THE FACE OF THE BUNKER AND IT PLUGGED, UNPLAYABLE. What is the correct ruling, course of action, drop scenarios etc please?" Yet it seems you don't understand why someone would respond with where the player can find the rules way forward for a ball plugged into the face of the bunker and unplayable.

 

[Colin L]

LOL, you seem to have invented your own first post. The one I read said (some emphasis added to assist you) "Todays playing partner was in a deep bunker, he hit his shot INTO THE FACE OF THE BUNKER AND IT PLUGGED, UNPLAYABLE. What is the correct ruling, course of action, drop scenarios etc please?" Yet it seems you don't understand why someone would respond with where the player can find the rules way forward for a ball plugged into the face of the bunker and unplayable.

I doubt it was helpful at all to refer the OP to the rule for an unplayable ball when he/she was clearly asking about an embedded ball. Whether an embedded ball is literally unplayable isn't in the first instance relevant. What part of the course it is embedded in, most certainly is. Referring to 19.3 was potentially misleading as it presumed the ball was in the bunker.

Anyway, I reckon that it's more helpful to people who come to forums like this with a question to give an explanation rather than just a reference to a rule number.

 

[SammmeBee]

Drop it at the point behind the ball as reference point....roll back into bunker....drop again....roll back....place where it hit the face or at a point it will remain at rest....

Unless it’s a particularly deep bunker a nf ball is a certain distance from the edge of the bunker....there’s a revision thing about it but I can’t remember the exact wording. Someone will be along shortly to correct me....

 

[salfordlad]

I doubt it was helpful at all to refer the OP to the rule for an unplayable ball when he/she was clearly asking about an embedded ball. Whether an embedded ball is literally unplayable isn't in the first instance relevant. What part of the course it is embedded in, most certainly is. Referring to 19.3 was potentially misleading as it presumed the ball was in the bunker.

Anyway, I reckon that it's more helpful to people who come to forums like this with a question to give an explanation rather than just a reference to a rule number.

Have you heard the one about simply handing over a fish, versus teaching how to fish........
If you remain of the view that there was no benefit in the OP person exploring 19.3 relating to bunker options, then we'll just agree to differ on that issue.

 

[rulie]

Have you heard the one about simply handing over a fish, versus teaching how to fish........
If you remain of the view that there was no benefit in the OP person exploring 19.3 relating to bunker options, then we'll just agree to differ on that issue.

As I said earlier, your response referencing 19.3 (Ball in bunker) was made prematurely, before it had been determined whether or not the ball was actually in a bunker. (Have you heard the one about digging oneself into a hole? It's a good idea to stop digging.)

 

[salfordlad]

As I said earlier, your response referencing 19.3 (Ball in bunker) was made prematurely, before it had been determined whether or not the ball was actually in a bunker. (Have you heard the one about digging oneself into a hole? It's a good idea to stop digging.)

If you guys spent half as much time assisting the OP rather than attacking the new chum that is also seeking to assist, I'm confident the interests of rules education would be better served.

 

[salfordlad]

Dear mashleyR7

On the information you have provided so far, it cannot be certain whether that 'bunker' face is part of the bunker or not. Rulefan's post #7 provides the definition of bunker, which guides in detail on what is not in a bunker, but it is critical to also consider Rule 12.1 "When Ball is in Bunker". You noted that there is "unprepared sand" in that face, as well as bare dirt and growing stuff. 12.1 affirms that a ball at rest on ground where sand would normally be (such as where sand was blown or washed away by wind or water) is in the bunker. So you need to answer whether that "unprepared sand" represents just some limited material sprayed out by people playing from the sand below or if it is a poorly maintained/unprepared/damaged part of the bunker. The answer guides you on the relief rule - as per my post #9.

 

[Colin L]

Have you heard the one about simply handing over a fish, versus teaching how to fish........
If you remain of the view that there was no benefit in the OP person exploring 19.3 relating to bunker options, then we'll just agree to differ on that issue.

I remain of the view that it was misleading to refer the OP to a rule relating to an unplayable ball when the question was actually about an embedded ball which meant that it was essential to establish what part of the course the ball was in.

I also am of the view that even if the reference is correct, pointing a questioner at a rule number without explanation is unhelpful and discourteous. Think of someone coming to the forum for help with the rules as the same as a fellow member who comes to you at your club with a rules question. Would you really just told them to go and read Rule 19.3 or whatever and find out for themselves? To me that would be verging on rudeness and somewhat arrogant.

@mashleyR7
Sorry about all of this distracting argument. Have you managed to get an answer to your question out of it? If not just say. It can be explained in plainer language!

 

[salfordlad]

I remain of the view that it was misleading to refer the OP to a rule relating to an unplayable ball when the question was actually about an embedded ball which meant that it was essential to establish what part of the course the ball was in.

I also am of the view that even if the reference is correct, pointing a questioner at a rule number without explanation is unhelpful and discourteous. Think of someone coming to the forum for help with the rules as the same as a fellow member who comes to you at your club with a rules question. Would you really just told them to go and read Rule 19.3 or whatever and find out for themselves? To me that would be verging on rudeness and somewhat arrogant.

Yourself, rulesfan and rulie have contributed 8 posts to the thread to date. Precisely 2 of those related to the substance of the OP. 6 are simply attacking my contribution and this continues to appear to be your preoccupation. Thank you for that fine welcome to this forum.