Playing from the green when its closed

[SaintHacker]

Winter league match on sunday. Temp green in play on one of the holes next to the main green. Opponent puts his shot onto the main green. He then putted from there to 2ft and holed his next for a net eagle to win the hole. Was he allowed to do that or do you have to lift and drop if the green is out of play?

 

[palindromicbob]

Winter league match on sunday. Temp green in play on one of the holes next to the main green. Opponent puts his shot onto the main green. He then putted from there to 2ft and holed his next for a net eagle to win the hole. Was he allowed to do that or do you have to lift and drop if the green is out of play?

soundsnlike he played from the wrong putting green. 2 stroke penalty.

 

[la_lucha]

Surely if there is no GUR sign on the main green then it's part of the hole and he played it correctly? Ours always have GUR on them if the Temp is in use.

 

[Foxholer]

Depends on Local Rule really, but normally, it would be treated as a 'Wrong Green'. 2SP/Loss of Hole. Not all GUR (if it's defined as such) is 'compulsory relief' unless specified (in LR) - though again this sort normally would be.

You did, of course need to make the claim before Teeing off on the next hole. Failure to do so means that you ignore the breach - which you are entitled to do in Matchplay - and the result of the hole stands as played.

 

[duncan mackie]

Surely if there is no GUR sign on the main green then it's part of the hole and he played it correctly? Ours always have GUR on them if the Temp is in use.

no

it's a wrong putting green by definition as P..bob has already posted (although as it was a match it would be loss of hole not 2 strokes )

rule 25-3

If a player’s ball lies on a wrong putting green, he must not play the ball as it lies. He must take relief, without penalty, as follows - etc

 

[Colin L]

No Local Rule involved and no need for GUR. The green not in use (i.e. the one without the flagstick ) whether the temporary one or the main one is a wrong putting green. Rule 25-3 applies and the player must take relief or incur a loss of hole/2 stroke penalty. Sainthacker's opponent lost the hole.

 

[Foxholer]

No Local Rule involved and no need for GUR. The green not in use (i.e. the one without the flagstick ) whether the temporary one or the main one is a wrong putting green. Rule 25-3 applies and the player must take relief or incur a loss of hole/2 stroke penalty. Sainthacker's opponent lost the hole.

Doh! Just (as my Broadband was playing up) read the definition of 'Wrong Putting Green'. I have seen LRs in place (or maybe just notices), but presumably just for emphasisis/clarity.

Delc-itis?

I trust I got the need for a Claim correct? :mmm:

 

[SaintHacker]

Thanks all. I thought that was the case but was happy to let it go as the match was being played in a very good spirit and I didn't want to play the rest of the round in an atmosphere. Also I was already out of the hole having lost a ball and gone OOB and my partner wasn't in much better shape. Unfortunately we went on to lose on the 18th, what could have been eh!

 

[Colin L]

Here is what not to do, especially with the TV cameras on you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxaq4NEBiRY

 

[Ian_Bristol]

No Local Rule involved and no need for GUR. The green not in use (i.e. the one without the flagstick ) whether the temporary one or the main one is a wrong putting green. Rule 25-3 applies and the player must take relief or incur a loss of hole/2 stroke penalty. Sainthacker's opponent lost the hole.

So does this mean that temp greens getting readied for winter are now in play even if they do not have a flag

 

[ScienceBoy]

So does this mean that temp greens getting readied for winter are now in play even if they do not have a flag

From previous clubs "Permanent" well defined temporary greens are GUR throughout periods of non-use.

I would expect defined temp greens to be a green which you have to drop off as its clearly a green! If its just fairway and no defined margin etc then you could easily say the whole fairway is a green!

Is my interpretation wrong here? Are greens not greens or are they?

 

[rulefan]

A putting green is an area specially prepared for putting or otherwise defined as such by the Committee.

This applies to all areas which satisfy that definition. Whether it is the permanent green, a temporary or a winter green, in play or not makes no difference. Rule 25-3 applies to all. A flagstick is not a requirement, a hole is.

However, some clubs/courses make a Local Rule declaring temps or winter greens as 'GUR play prohibited'. This is usually because the committee don't believe their members understand the subtle difference about relief for stance not being applicable under 25-3.

Whichever way, the committee should make it clear the extent of any temporary/winter green as the cut height rarely gives a clue.

There is a myth that many believe, that you may play from a wrong green providing you only use a putter.

 

[Colin L]

Temporary greens are not GUR unless so defined. Any area that has been "prepared for putting" is by Definition a putting green. Generally you'd expect it to be clear from the height the grass is cut to what the putting surface is, but at my club we mark temporary greens with a dotted white line for the avoidance of doubt and to try to cut down on the number of plonkers who despite everything take divots out of them.

If a particular putting green is not being used, it is a wrong putting green in terms of Rule 25-3 and you cannot play from it. That is all you need - it's a basic Rule of Golf (25-3) and really very simple.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-25/

I am not in favour of marking temporary greens as GUR since it is unnecessary and just adds needless complications to a simple situation. You have to prohibit play from the GUR which means an extra bit to your local rules. Interference to stance is not included in Rule 25-3 and would have to be added to relief from GUR if you wanted it to be the same. The standard marking of GUR is a white line and so what is the status of a temporary green with a white line round it and a flagstick in the hole? In short, why choose a complicated local rule when the situation is already neatly dealt with in the Rules.

 

[duncan mackie]

From previous clubs "Permanent" well defined temporary greens are GUR throughout periods of non-use.

I would expect defined temp greens to be a green which you have to drop off as its clearly a green! If its just fairway and no defined margin etc then you could easily say the whole fairway is a green!

Is my interpretation wrong here? Are greens not greens or are they?

more right than wrong :thup:

a putting green is a surface prepared for putting

GUR is an area marked, or defined, as GUR by the committee

between these two you get the applicable ruling

if an area of fairway is, for example, being clearly cut to a lower height in preparation for it's role as a putting green then it's a wrong putting green already

if it's marked or defined as a temporary green GUR play prohibited but still cut to fairway height it's GUR

if it's an area of fairway with no preparation, no definition or delineation but you know it's going to be the winter green as usual then then you play it as it lies and suggest to your committee that they do something about it if they don't want people playing from there!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

more right than wrong :thup:

a putting green is a surface prepared for putting

GUR is an area marked, or defined, as GUR by the committee

between these two you get the applicable ruling

if an area of fairway is, for example, being clearly cut to a lower height in preparation for it's role as a putting green then it's a wrong putting green already

if it's marked or defined as a temporary green GUR play prohibited but still cut to fairway height it's GUR

if it's an area of fairway with no preparation, no definition or delineation but you know it's going to be the winter green as usual then then you play it as it lies and suggest to your committee that they do something about it if they don't want people playing from there!

And so I take as read that there is no need for a hole to have been cut for a temporary green to be a wrong putting green. The very fact that it has been prepared, and possibly delineated, as a temp is sufficient

 

[rulefan]

And so I take as read that there is no need for a hole to have been cut for a temporary green to be a wrong putting green. The very fact that it has been prepared, and possibly delineated, as a temp is sufficient

No.
If there is no hole, no one can putt, there is no line of putt. Preparation has not been completed.
The definition says 'prepared' not 'being prepared'. UNLESS the committee has "defined it as such".

The point about the committee's declaration is that they may have earmarked an area and not yet cut the grass lower than the fairway (say). Although they could have declared and marked it as GUR, it could be confusing to players if they subsequently (after fully preparing it) took the GUR status off and let its appearance show its new status.

See post #12 which is based on correspondence with the R&A.

A further consideration is that it is preferable for all greens to be designated in the same way. Permanent greens as wrong greens by default and temps/winter as GUR just causes confusion. No one knows how to take relief from one or the other. Marking temps as GUR PP leaves some players believing they can play from the real greens (albeit with a putter).
Put up a bold notice saying that all greens except the one in play for the hole are wrong greens and give the relief details.

PS vis a vis my comment re teeing ground, I should of course have written putting green

 

[backwoodsman]

Would someone offer an opinion about the situation at our place? All our greens have a fringe - I supose like most places. They are always cut short, but not as short as the green itself. They are always quite big at the front. For a winter green, the hole is simply cut on the front fringe. No additional or extra preparation. Both the green and fringe are as they are all year round. Just that the hole is moved forward.

So what would be the status of the green when the flag is on the fringe. And vice versa. At any time of year. (And I'm not aware we have a local rule in place)

 

[palindromicbob]

no

it's a wrong putting green by definition as P..bob has already posted (although as it was a match it would be loss of hole not 2 strokes )

rule 25-3

If a player’s ball lies on a wrong putting green, he must not play the ball as it lies. He must take relief, without penalty, as follows - etc

Yeah wanted to add that after I'd posted but phone was playing up.

Would someone offer an opinion about the situation at our place? All our greens have a fringe - I supose like most places. They are always cut short, but not as short as the green itself. They are always quite big at the front. For a winter green, the hole is simply cut on the front fringe. No additional or extra preparation. Both the green and fringe are as they are all year round. Just that the hole is moved forward.

So what would be the status of the green when the flag is on the fringe. And vice versa. At any time of year. (And I'm not aware we have a local rule in place)

Flag on fringe. I'd be tempted to say that because there isn't a specific separate area prepared as a temp green then the green is still the green. I have seen some course that paint an outline defining the temp green in situations like this in which case the normal green becomes a wrong green. Local rule should tell you how to treat it.

 

[rulefan]

Not unusual. The real problem arises with rule 16 situations.

The (lazy) committee should mark the extent of the area which may encompass or exclude the main green. A local rule would be nice.

This is the sort of thing which perpetuates the 'you may use a putter' myth.

 

[CMAC]

Not unusual. The real problem arises with rule 16 situations.

The (lazy) committee should mark the extent of the area which may encompass or exclude the main green. A local rule would be nice.

This is the sort of thing which perpetuates the 'you may use a putter' myth.

never come across this 'myth', this local to a certain geographical area I wonder? or maybe every club and player I've known knows the rules well