Playing Conditions Calculation

[Wildboy370]

With it clearly obvious no one knows how or why, I emailed the authorities at England golf as surely they know what formula is used and when. They did after all give us massive amounts of information leasing up to WHS being thrust upon us.
see the reply I got, make staggering reading.

The PCC is a closed calculation within WHS - Its done via a calculator provided to us by the USGA/R&A.

We have no detail to share currently and have raised concerns with the USGA/R&A.

 

[rulefan]

With it clearly obvious no one knows how or why, I emailed the authorities at England golf as surely they know what formula is used and when. They did after all give us massive amounts of information leasing up to WHS being thrust upon us.
see the reply I got, make staggering reading.

The PCC is a closed calculation within WHS - Its done via a calculator provided to us by the USGA/R&A.

We have no detail to share currently and have raised concerns with the USGA/R&A.

What will you do with the information if you get it?
How often did you check the CSS process? Did the tables make sense?

 

[Old Skier]

What will you do with the information if you get it?
How often did you check the CSS process? Did the tables make sense?

Never a truer post. Very few of any handicap understood SSS CSS but now everyone is concerned about the dark art of PCC.

 

[IanM]

Golfers questioning the WHS? Whatever next? Women playing on Saturday mornings? The Goths are at the gates of Rome!

I guess the point is, golfers want to "understand" what is going on. The answer "the system is always right, so there" is never palatable.

I could live with the old system.. crikey its a rough day, the CSS went up a bit... that translates to PCC well enough for simple folk like me... and as said above... what will you do with the info? Check it I suppose!!

The point the authorities seem to not grasp, is for a new system to be trusted, you must be able to have a level of ability to check or validate. Most players I know, want to work out what the Index will be after they've played... or at least be confident on what direction it is going in. Otherwise it loses credibility.

As mentioned before. A lower score/diff went on my wife's "best 8" last weekend. She went up 0.2. No one at the club has been able to fathom out this and they've emailed WG.

At the end of the day, does that matter? Probably not to her, but if it meant a Cat 1 failing to qualify for an event it would. Doesn't do the credibility of the product any good either.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Never a truer post. Very few of any handicap understood SSS CSS but now everyone is concerned about the dark art of PCC.

Not the case, there was a clear manual formula that could be used, furthermore you could have a rough guess at a glance of the scoring and predict if it was going to be an up or down day. And when a member came to me and said "how come...." I could explain it, now it's "dinna ask me mate, nobody knows"

Now we've gone through a season that was unseasonably cold, then unseasonably hot, now pissing rain, playing long, playing short, and not a single medal PCC has changed all season. Nobody knows why, nor can anyone explain it.

 

[rulefan]

My impression is that the minority of areas that used CSS or an equivalent determined the the formula was too extreme (generous or harsh).
I would guess the the Golf Australia Calculated Course Rating which had been used over many years was used as a model (or even adopted in full). GA has had a reputation for possibly having the most sophisticated handicapping system in the world and other authorities have always been watching any developments there.
To the best of my knowledge GA has never published the algorithm.

 

[IanM]

Not the case, there was a clear manual formula that could be used, furthermore you could have a rough guess at a glance of the scoring and predict if it was going to be an up or down day. And when a member came to me and said "how come...." I could explain it, now it's "dinna ask me mate, nobody knows"

Now we've gone through a season that was unseasonably cold, then unseasonably hot, now pissing rain, playing long, playing short, and not a single medal PCC has changed all season. Nobody knows why, nor can anyone explain it.

My last ten rounds. "8" zeros and "2" twos.. on the PCC. The last 2 was Southerndown's Open last week in 30mph plus winds and heavy rain. 5 or 6 might have done it!

 

[jim8flog]

What will you do with the information if you get it?
How often did you check the CSS process? Did the tables make sense?

Back in the days when it was done manually from the tables I reckoned the secretary had got it wrong. I asked if I could borrow the book and did it for myself. He had but I was too polite and to friendly with him to tell him he had. It made me realise just how much work used to go in to it working from the tables.

 

[rosecott]

Back in the days when it was done manually from the tables I reckoned the secretary had got it wrong. I asked if I could borrow the book and did it for myself. He had but I was too polite and to friendly with him to tell him he had. It made me realise just how much work used to go in to it working from the tables.

And - did it serve any purpose?

Just what do any of the posters, who are demanding the calculation formula, intend to do with it?

 

[jim8flog]

I can only go by own scores (we have many more comps than the ones I go in). My last 20 have all been since coming out of lockdown and there have 3 out of the 20 with a PCC alteration.

 

[jim8flog]

And - did it serve any purpose?

Just what do any of the posters, who are demanding the calculation formula, intend to do with it?

I should have a had a small cut but did not get it but I was the only who played better than SSS. He had used all players scores but at the time some of the players scores should have been excluded from the calculation.

 

[Wildboy370]

As the one who asked the question, those that are saying what are we going to do with the calculation are missing the point. We were told this is how calculate this that and the other while WHS was being set up and implemented except the PCC. We now all understand how this works. But when you have time again less than 10% of a field of 100 plus playing to par and mainly due to the weather at my course and appear lots more up and down the country you expect the system to acknowledge this and reset it self with the PCC to offset any big changes in the HI. But what we now see and know is this is not the case anywhere, so when you ask the question to the main body England Golf, how is this calculated you expect and answer like all the other calculations we have to follow. But as it now appears abundantly clear they have not got a clue and have asked the R n A and USPGA to give them and answer. So I don’t want anything from what ever calculation, won’t use it, I just want to know it is doing what it is supposed to do and it quiet clearly isnt and is effectping everyone’s HI week in week out and will possibly get worse as winter draws in and the weather gets worse. So if nothing e.she comes from this at least we may get a broken system fixed.

 

[SammmeBee]

As the one who asked the question, those that are saying what are we going to do with the calculation are missing the point. We were told this is how calculate this that and the other while WHS was being set up and implemented except the PCC. We now all understand how this works. But when you have time again less than 10% of a field of 100 plus playing to par and mainly due to the weather at my course and appear lots more up and down the country you expect the system to acknowledge this and reset it self with the PCC to offset any big changes in the HI. But what we now see and know is this is not the case anywhere, so when you ask the question to the main body England Golf, how is this calculated you expect and answer like all the other calculations we have to follow. But as it now appears abundantly clear they have not got a clue and have asked the R n A and USPGA to give them and answer. So I don’t want anything from what ever calculation, won’t use it, I just want to know it is doing what it is supposed to do and it quiet clearly isnt and is effectping everyone’s HI week in week out and will possibly get worse as winter draws in and the weather gets worse. So if nothing e.she comes from this at least we may get a broken system fixed.

Handicap should go up in the winter and then back down again when you come back into warmer climes…..

That said PCC is bollocks…..especially if you play somewhere where the wind is the major obstacle…..I don’t believe wind is taken into any account for slope or CR either…..

 

[rulefan]

But when you have time again less than 10% of a field of 100 plus playing to par

Of course par has nothing to do with playing to handicap.

 

[rulefan]

This is how Golf Australia describes PCC.

"The formulas used to assess the DSR (ie PCC) are complex as our statisticians have advised that simple formula options are not efficient enough to produce reliable ratings

Through GOLF Link (their WHS Software) , the DSR (ie PCC) system will establish each of the following:
The average net score for a field.••
The average handicap of a field.••
The field size.••
The type of competition (Stableford, Par, or Stroke).••
The gender of the competitors.••

Once it has established each of these factors, GOLF Link will compare the ACTUAL average net score on the day with the average net score GOLF Link EXPECTS for this precise field composition. (The EXPECTED average is determined by GOLF Link from millions of prior rounds.) GOLF Link will then determine the DSR by using the difference between what ACTUALLY happened on the day and what was EXPECTED to happen.

 

[Wildboy370]

This is how Golf Australia describes PCC.

"The formulas used to assess the DSR (ie PCC) are complex as our statisticians have advised that simple formula options are not efficient enough to produce reliable ratings

Through GOLF Link (their WHS Software) , the DSR (ie PCC) system will establish each of the following:
The average net score for a field.••
The average handicap of a field.••
The field size.••
The type of competition (Stableford, Par, or Stroke).••
The gender of the competitors.••

Once it has established each of these factors, GOLF Link will compare the ACTUAL average net score on the day with the average net score GOLF Link EXPECTS for this precise field composition. (The EXPECTED average is determined by GOLF Link from millions of prior rounds.) GOLF Link will then determine the DSR by using the difference between what ACTUALLY happened on the day and what was EXPECTED to happen.

So basically a pile of tosh in a new pile of tosh system written by people in suits who have no understanding of reality...

 

[SammmeBee]

So basically a pile of tosh in a new pile of tosh system written by people in suits who have no understanding of reality...

Yes!

 

[IanMcC]

What will you do with the information if you get it?
How often did you check the CSS process? Did the tables make sense?

These are very poor arguments for a complete lack of transparency in the process.
I'm sorry rulefan, you are defending the indefensible here.

 

[IanM]

This is how Golf Australia describes PCC.

"The formulas used to assess the DSR (ie PCC) are complex as our statisticians have advised that simple formula options are not efficient enough to produce reliable ratings

Through GOLF Link (their WHS Software) , the DSR (ie PCC) system will establish each of the following:
The average net score for a field.••
The average handicap of a field.••
The field size.••
The type of competition (Stableford, Par, or Stroke).••
The gender of the competitors.••

Once it has established each of these factors, GOLF Link will compare the ACTUAL average net score on the day with the average net score GOLF Link EXPECTS for this precise field composition. (The EXPECTED average is determined by GOLF Link from millions of prior rounds.) GOLF Link will then determine the DSR by using the difference between what ACTUALLY happened on the day and what was EXPECTED to happen.

Good. That's sorted that out then.

 

[jim8flog]

Handicap should go up in the winter and then back down again when you come back into warmer climes…..

This never used to be true for me, most of downs came in winter. Softer greens and not so many unpredictable bounces from rock solid fairways and approaches .