Players not knowing the rules

[nickjdavis]

I try to read up on rules and always have the app at hand for situations when I'm not sure. But even so, even the simplest (on the face of it) questions in the rules section alot of times turn into mush in my head as the rules gurus enter the stage. So, I try, but most likely I break the odd rule without knowing it myself.

I think a lot f the confusion arises from the OP's not clearly describing the situation they faced, or using terms that have no place in the rulebook...folks then start interpreting what the OP really meant and immediately there are several different scenarios blowing round the thread...all of which develop their own tangents making it difficult to follow the original theme.

 

[Orikoru]

The rules are way too complex, and the decisions on the rules are a minefield.

So far on this thread we've seen 3 examples of excess complexity:
1. Red and yellow penalty areas with different rules. What's the point? Why not just adopt the red penalty area rule in all cases.
2. 1 club length vs 2. why not just standardise 2 clubs' length to simplify the rules.
3. The player dropping away from the pond had 3 options (at least). How many sports give players 3 different options?

I still don't know what red and yellow hazards are tbh.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Water hazards that you can't see - so you don't know if your ball has actually gone in or not, thus causing so much confusion as to playing provisonals, and taking penalty drops.

 

[Mel Smooth]

I still don't know what red and yellow hazards are tbh.

Generally a red (lateral) hazard will run along the length of a hole, so if you go in, you can take relief to the side, at the point of entry, not nearer the hole. Yellow hazards, you're dropping back behind the hazard in line with the flag from the point of entry. A cross fairway drainage ditch would be an obvious example.

 

[sjw]

Generally a red (lateral) hazard will run along the length of a hole, so if you go in, you can take relief to the side, at the point of entry, not nearer the hole. Yellow hazards, you're dropping back behind the hazard in line with the flag from the point of entry. A cross fairway drainage ditch would be an obvious example.

I still don't know what red and yellow hazards are tbh.

Exactly. A red penalty area (not hazard ) runs in such a way that having to go back on the line would mean dropping on the other side of the water - if that water is the size of Lake Michigan, you'd be in a world of trouble! So you can drop at the entry point

 

[sjw]

The rules are way too complex, and the decisions on the rules are a minefield.

So far on this thread we've seen 3 examples of excess complexity:
1. Red and yellow penalty areas with different rules. What's the point? Why not just adopt the red penalty area rule in all cases.
2. 1 club length vs 2. why not just standardise 2 clubs' length to simplify the rules.
3. The player dropping away from the pond had 3 options (at least). How many sports give players 3 different options?

Point 1 is well raised - I can't see any point in the yellow penalty area.

 

[Orikoru]

Generally a red (lateral) hazard will run along the length of a hole, so if you go in, you can take relief to the side, at the point of entry, not nearer the hole. Yellow hazards, you're dropping back behind the hazard in line with the flag from the point of entry. A cross fairway drainage ditch would be an obvious example.

Without knowing what was red and what was yellow - that's exactly how I would have proceeded anyway. So I guess @sunshine was right, why not just have one set of rules without the red and yellow nonsense?

 

[jim8flog]

I’m slightly confused are you saying if you hit a ball into a pond that’s just short of the green you can drop greenside of the pond? I thought you had to drop other side of pond.

I would repeat

I played with somebody yesterday who went in to a large pond short of a green.

I was trying to explain from the green side of the pond

I was already green side of the pond which involves a long detour round bushes as well as the pond and was not going to walk all the way back round it, to explain something as basic as this to someone who has played the game for over 40 years. (not sure though it might just his age and memory )

 

[jim8flog]

I think a lot f the confusion arises from the OP's not clearly describing the situation they faced, or using terms that have no place in the rulebook...folks then start interpreting what the OP really meant and immediately there are several different scenarios blowing round the thread...all of which develop their own tangents making it difficult to follow the original theme.

The point I was making was more about players not knowing fairly basic rules rather than a discussion on the scenario.

 

[timd77]

I’m certainly in the ‘could know the rules better’ camp, hence my recent post in the rules forum. I thought I knew but wasn’t quite sure.

It can also be advantageous to understand them. Last weekend I hit my ball into a green side bunker which is gur (it’s being turfed over, currently a mid heap), the ball came to rest in the top half of the bunker. Not thinking, I dropped my ball before the bunker in the rough, it’s a tricky shot over the bunker as the green runs away and obviously I ended up duffing back into the bunker. Dropped in the same place again, same result. Picked up in a cloud of muttered expletives. Remembered afterwards that it’s ‘nearest point of relief not nearer the hole’ and so I could’ve actually dropped the ball in nice turf with nothing to chip over. Definitely felt like an idiot after than because I knew, just didn’t stop to think.

 

[Backsticks]

I’m certainly in the ‘could know the rules better’ camp, hence my recent post in the rules forum. I thought I knew but wasn’t quite sure.

It can also be advantageous to understand them. Last weekend I hit my ball into a green side bunker which is gur (it’s being turfed over, currently a mid heap), the ball came to rest in the top half of the bunker. Not thinking, I dropped my ball before the bunker in the rough, it’s a tricky shot over the bunker as the green runs away and obviously I ended up duffing back into the bunker. Dropped in the same place again, same result. Picked up in a cloud of muttered expletives. Remembered afterwards that it’s ‘nearest point of relief not nearer the hole’ and so I could’ve actually dropped the ball in nice turf with nothing to chip over. Definitely felt like an idiot after than because I knew, just didn’t stop to think.

Someone really not knowing the rules though would probably have proceded on the basis of - I shouldnt be penalised for that mess - and not only dropped to avoid playing over it, but a nice lie on the fairway. PPs would have agreed - sure, not your fault the greenkeepers have left a mess, no way you should be penalised in any way.

 

[D-S]

I think there are a lot of players who deliberately don’t know or learn the rules: that way, in their eyes, if they breach a rule in their favour, then they are ‘not really cheating’ as they don’t know the rule.

 

[Voyager EMH]

The red posts mark out a danger area for those who don't hit it very far.
The yellow posts mark out a danger area for those who hit it a reasonable distance.
The white posts mark out a danger area for those who hit it a long way - the wrong way.

The blue posts are there just to make the place look pretty.

 

[sjw]

At what point are you deemed to have broken a rule? Say you think you get two club lengths but it's actually one, and you drop 1.5 club lengths away. If someone says, "woah, it's only one club length" and you pick it up and redrop, is that ok? Is the penalty incurred once you've played your next shot?

 

[jim8flog]

At what point are you deemed to have broken a rule? Say you think you get two club lengths but it's actually one, and you drop 1.5 club lengths away. If someone says, "woah, it's only one club length" and you pick it up and redrop, is that ok? Is the penalty incurred once you've played your next shot?

It is OK to correct an error such as this before playing a shot because in doing so you are avoiding breaking a rule and there is is nothing wrong with one player telling another he is about to break a rule.

 

[Backsticks]

I think there are a lot of players who deliberately don’t know or learn the rules: that way, in their eyes, if they breach a rule in their favour, then they are ‘not really cheating’ as they don’t know the rule.

I think that is very much the rarer case. Generally its people not knowing the rule, although from the ones I observe, they do tend to favour themselves more than the rules would grant them. Its very much an innocent not knowing of the rule, but benefitting from it nontheless. Its a rare golfer who studies the rules, most just picking up bits from playing partners as they take up the game. So the rarer connundrums are by and large unknown by all in a group. No one really wants to stop the show to consult the rule book or an app, so a common sense guess is made, and the game carries on with nobody too concerned about whether it was to the letter of the law.

 

[Rlburnside]

I would repeat



I was already green side of the pond which involves a long detour round bushes as well as the pond and was not going to walk all the way back round it, to explain something as basic as this to someone who has played the game for over 40 years. (not sure though it might just his age and memory )

Ok thanks just my misinterpretation of your post

 

[NearHull]

Perhaps more frustrating is the player who insists he knows the rules but gets them slightly wrong. I had an experience of this the other week with a player who correctly took a Water Penalty drop but just before he played, declared it a Provisional ( he wasn’t sure that it was in the water). He then decided that, loudly and repeatedly over-talking my attempt at trying to explain his error, was an acceptable way of proving he was correct. The following three holes were played in strained silence as he spent his time on ( I presume) the R&A site checking the rules. He eventually admitted he was wrong, but did not apologise. It was quite satisfying to win 6 and 4. I then mischievously bought him and his partner a drink in the bar.

 

[Old Colner]

Perhaps more frustrating is the player who insists he knows the rules but gets them slightly wrong.

This is the reason, in my earlier post, I said I didn’t know the rule and checked on my phone, I had an issue this week people insisting the handicap allowance for 4BBB was 90% of the difference, I knew they were wrong and stood my ground and insisted we calculated the correct way.

 

[Deleted member 25172]

This is the reason, in my earlier post, I said I didn’t know the rule and checked on my phone, I had an issue this week people insisting the handicap allowance for 4BBB was 90% of the difference, I knew they were wrong and stood my ground and insisted we calculated the correct way.

This happens EVERY week at my club, and I need to try and explain that is not how it is done. It’s clearly not working.