Perfect par 3

[Mel Smooth]

Our 8th can be over 200 off the back tees, up a steepish hill, with 3 bunkers protecting the front of a tiered green that slopes continually from back to front. The green is huge, and 4 putts are quite easily accumulated if you read the pace and line wrong.

I know Rick Shiels likes to proclaim the 17th at the JCB as the hardest in the world, but I’m sure this hole must be just as difficult to make par on.

And if that’s not bad enough, the 4th is 240 off the back tees, and the 16th about 220.

Obviously this pattern is maintained on the par 4’s and 5’s…..

 

[Patster1969]

One of my bugbears at Tylney is the par 3's, as the 4 par 3's are all well over 160 from the whites. The 5th is usually 200 to the middle (with OB left of the green & trees to the right - I've been in those trees a lot!), the 8th is 180 (but 5 yards uphill), the 13th is 185 & the 17th is 165 but plays about 10 yds uphill - as has been said previously, a variety of long & short makes it more interesting.
If you have seniors playing in the weekend comp that aren't able to reach 2 of the 4 with driver, not much fun for them. My lowest club is still 5 iron (on 17), so usually 5 or 7 wood to the others.

 

[Backsticks]

There's a 220y par 3 at my course. I always hook my hybrid left into the trees, and I refuse to take driver. Guy I joined up with yesterday hit driver, only made it to the front edge. He did actually make par, but before we teed off he said, "how can this be a par 3 at 220y?" and I think that is the general consensus

It isnt a par 3. Fine for a scratch cup, or elite champioship. Its just bad design if played by the normal range of handicap golfers.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

It isnt a par 3. Fine for a scratch cup, or elite champioship. Its just bad design if played by the normal range of handicap golfers.

Who is par set up for?

The standard scratch, as was, was set for a normal scratch player, where they hit it length-wise, accuracy-wise etc. Are Pars done the same way, and then handicaps/stroke indexes set up accordingly?
@rulefan , any knowledge/comment on this?

 

[Backsticks]

Par is set up for the majority that play it but is really an indicator that you should be able to hit it from the tee. Nothing wrong with 220 if you are hosting a county championship.
But you then need tees at 175 or something, for the day in day out average handicap. Its the course rating and slope that change. Par stays the same.
The key chatacteristic of a par 3, is that the vaste majority of those playing it, have the length to hit yhe green. And not just dribble on your best hit, on hard ground, when the wind is behind. But play the full of the green, and at least 10 yards longer than that. That makes the hole a good and fair challenge.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Par is set up for the majority that play it. Nothing wrong with 220 if you are hosting a county championship.
But you then need tees at 175 or something, for the day in day out average handicap. Its the course rating and slope that change. Par stays the same.
The key chatacteristic of a par 3, is that the vaste majority of those playing it, have the length to hit yhe green. And not just drobble on your best hit, on hard ground, when the wind is behind. But play the full of the green, and at least 10 yards longer than that. That makes the hole a good and fair challenge.

sorry but that’s not how someone designs a golf course

This is the relative lengths for pars when setting up a coirse

Par 3 - Men = up to 250 , Ladies = up to 210

Par 4 - Men = 251 to 470 , Ladies = 211 to 400

Par 5 - Men = 471 to 690 , Ladies = 401 to 575

 

[Backache]

When I first started playing golf, if I recall correctly the recommendations for par had overlapping distances which makes sense with uphill and downhill holes and strong prevailing winds.
When did it change?

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Par is set up for the majority that play it but is really an indicator that you should be able to hit it from the tee. Nothing wrong with 220 if you are hosting a county championship.
But you then need tees at 175 or something, for the day in day out average handicap. Its the course rating and slope that change. Par stays the same.
The key chatacteristic of a par 3, is that the vaste majority of those playing it, have the length to hit yhe green. And not just dribble on your best hit, on hard ground, when the wind is behind. But play the full of the green, and at least 10 yards longer than that. That makes the hole a good and fair challenge.

So, based on what I posted earlier, if you can't hit a par 4 in 2, do you believe it should actually be a par 5? Because if you can't reach a 220 par 3, you ain't hitting a 440 par 4!
Yet I, and those with lower handicaps, who are better players can for the most part easily hit both of those quoted distances in regulation.

 

[SyR]

I think East Sussex National has a good blend of par 3's on their courses. The West for me is slightly ahead on par 3's although the 16 East is also a favourite due to taking inspiration from the 12th at Augusta. If the course was quiet, I used to enjoy playing the first 15 of the West then walk down the 16 East to play the last 3 on the East.

The 3rd West is 135 yards from the blue and 170 yards from the back, often into wind. It's a shot to a undulating green and water on the front and right side. There are gully's front left and back to collect any stray balls.
The 7th is 190 yards from the blue and 239 from the back, again often into wind. The tees are slightly elevated. Front left and right is protected by bunkers, so safer to go long. The green is flat, so an up and down is easier than on the others.
The 13th is 183 yards from the blue and 205 from the back. The tees are elevated, there is water and bunkers short but they don't really come into play but just make the hole more intimidating. The green is a large bowl, and slopes from back to front, so is satisfying to hit to and it's safer to go long. If the ball gets hung up at the top of the bowl, it's a pretty daunting chip.
The 16th is 116 yards from the blue and 133 yards from the back. The green is tiny and narrow and is elevated from the surrounding area. The tee's are elevated from the green and the right side is exposed the the prevailing winds. Three deep bunkers guard the right side and large grass dips guard the left and back. Although it's short enough to almost throw a ball to the green, it's almost impossible to make an up and down if you miss the green right, long or left. If you aimed short and left in the summer, you could run the ball onto the green from the small fairway the approaches the green.

https://www.eastsussexnational.co.uk/golf/information/the-west-course/

 

[DeanoMK]

Temple golf course was a strange one for par 3s, 135 and 212 on the front 9 but the 212 was severely downhill and played about 20/30 yards less.

Back 9 starts with a 235 yard par 3 that is in a bowl so you can't see the green at all. You only need to hit it about 190-200 yards to catch the slope.

4th par 3 is 129 but uphill and then the 16th is 227 yards uphill and I couldn't get there with my Sunday best 5 wood. Funny thing is the 18th is 245 yards.

I think anything over 200 yards is a bad par 3.

 

[Imurg]

Hunstanton has a quirky par 3
Up and over the dunes, you can't see anything more than about 90 yards and the hole is 180+ if I remember
The only way you know that the green is clear is a pole that has a rope attached
Pull on the rope, the pole wobbles and the way is clear.
Bonkers hole but I did par it.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Maybe we need to start a list of bad par 3's?

16th @ Carnoustie (Championship), 245 yards
11th @ Royal St. George's, 242 yards
4th @ Royal County Down, 229 yards
14th @ Royal County Down, 212 yards
14th @ Royal Birkdale, 200 yards
1st @ Royal Lytham & St. Annes, 206 yards
5th @ Royal Lytham & St. Annes, 218 yards
16th @ Machrihanish (Championship), 232 yards
13th @ Mid Ocean, 238 yards
9th @ Turnberry (Ailsa), 248 yards
15th @ Turnberry (Ailsa), 234 yards
17th @ Rye, 234 yards

Funny how many good courses have bad par 3's...

 

[Grizzly]

I don't mind a long par 3 at all, as long as it is designed to be balanced. I do object when courses have lots of them - destroys the effect/impact. Ideally you get a range of them, same as you want a range of par 4s.

 

[Backsticks]

sorry but that’s not how someone designs a golf course

This is the relative lengths for pars when setting up a coirse

Par 3 - Men = up to 250 , Ladies = up to 210

Par 4 - Men = 251 to 470 , Ladies = 211 to 400

Par 5 - Men = 471 to 690 , Ladies = 401 to 575

Yes. 'Up to 250'. Which is great to have for the scratchman playing each other. I have never come across a 690yd par 5 in my life. I may have played one from different tees, but the average handicap golfer is not well tested, nor able to enjoy his golf, playing such long holes when he struggles to hit it more than 200 with a driver, much less expect accuracy to a green with various troubles around it.
Its a horses for courses thing. Thats why my opening note was that the perfect par 3, imo, (and thats not to say there shouldnt be both longer and shorter on a course for variety), is one played with a 4-6 iron, regardless of golfing level.

 

[Backsticks]

So, based on what I posted earlier, if you can't hit a par 4 in 2, do you believe it should actually be a par 5? Because if you can't reach a 220 par 3, you ain't hitting a 440 par 4!
Yet I, and those with lower handicaps, who are better players can for the most part easily hit both of those quoted distances in regulation.

Again, it depends who is playing it. If the LIV tour is in town, then its a par 4 even for them at their age and declining powers. If its the Society of Retired Gentlemen for Gentle Golf, its still a par 4, but they should be playing it 100 yards shorter tees.
Par 4s and 5s dont really come in to it as they are elastic. The point about par 3s is that they are a one shotter. The design of the green is such that it IS to be be in range to be hit from the tee. Contours, hazards, slopes, etc all follow from that. 4s and 5s are more complex, and in their design, take into account that they will be approached from different distances and directions.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

Maybe we need to start a list of bad par 3's?

16th @ Carnoustie (Championship), 245 yards
11th @ Royal St. George's, 242 yards
4th @ Royal County Down, 229 yards
14th @ Royal County Down, 212 yards
14th @ Royal Birkdale, 200 yards
1st @ Royal Lytham & St. Annes, 206 yards
5th @ Royal Lytham & St. Annes, 218 yards
16th @ Machrihanish (Championship), 232 yards
13th @ Mid Ocean, 238 yards
9th @ Turnberry (Ailsa), 248 yards
15th @ Turnberry (Ailsa), 234 yards
17th @ Rye, 234 yards

Funny how many good courses have bad par 3's...

15th at Grims Dyke.................

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Again, it depends who is playing it. If the LIV tour is in town, then its a par 4 even for them at their age and declining powers. If its the Society of Retired Gentlemen for Gentle Golf, its still a par 4, but they should be playing it 100 yards shorter tees.
Par 4s and 5s dont really come in to it as they are elastic. The point about par 3s is that they are a one shotter. The design of the green is such that it IS to be be in range to be hit from the tee. Contours, hazards, slopes, etc all follow from that. 4s and 5s are more complex, and in their design, take into account that they will be approached from different distances and directions.

Doesn’t matter who’s playing it. A par 4 is a 2 shotter, even if you cant reach it in 2.
Just like a long par 3 is still a par 3, even if you can’t reach it off the tee.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Maybe we need to start a list of bad par 3's?

16th @ Carnoustie (Championship), 245 yards
11th @ Royal St. George's, 242 yards
4th @ Royal County Down, 229 yards
14th @ Royal County Down, 212 yards
14th @ Royal Birkdale, 200 yards
1st @ Royal Lytham & St. Annes, 206 yards
5th @ Royal Lytham & St. Annes, 218 yards
16th @ Machrihanish (Championship), 232 yards
13th @ Mid Ocean, 238 yards
9th @ Turnberry (Ailsa), 248 yards
15th @ Turnberry (Ailsa), 234 yards
17th @ Rye, 234 yards

Funny how many good courses have bad par 3's...

16th at Portrush looked a decent hole…Calamity, it was a long iron even for Rory and co.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Maybe we need to start a list of bad par 3's?

16th @ Carnoustie (Championship), 245 yards
11th @ Royal St. George's, 242 yards
4th @ Royal County Down, 229 yards
14th @ Royal County Down, 212 yards
14th @ Royal Birkdale, 200 yards
1st @ Royal Lytham & St. Annes, 206 yards
5th @ Royal Lytham & St. Annes, 218 yards
16th @ Machrihanish (Championship), 232 yards
13th @ Mid Ocean, 238 yards
9th @ Turnberry (Ailsa), 248 yards
15th @ Turnberry (Ailsa), 234 yards
17th @ Rye, 234 yards

Funny how many good courses have bad par 3's...

The Turnberry yardages are medal tees, not quite the same tees for us mortals. The 9th in particular gets chopped pretty heavily for regular folk. They'd be pretty awful lengths for club golfers.

 

[Backache]

If a hole has cracking features and is 245 yds long why on earth does it matter what the par on the scorecard says.
All the holes I listed in post #28 are great holes,why ruin them with some forward tee for wimps?
Call the par whatever you want it is just a number, it is how the hole plays that matter not the par ostensibly attached to it.
The fact that I agree that for variety a course is better for having some short par3's does not make the long ones bad holes for any standard of golfer providing there is not a ridiculous carry without an alternative route.