Penalty stroke or not ?

[Oops!]

Yesterday, my ball ended up in a hole in the rough. It was exactly the same shape and size as a hole on a green (!), so there was no chance of getting the ball out of there with a stroke. So, due to the condition of the course, the ball was definitely unplayable.

My fellow players and I were unsure: we agreed that I could have taken the ball out with my hand and dropped it if I had declared it unplayable.

However, the question remained whether this would incur a penalty stroke or not ?

How is it done correctly ? And which rules apply ?

 

[Colin L]

You were right that you could lift the ball out of the hole; you can decide your ball is unplayable for any reason anywhere on the course except in a penalty area. It costs you a one stroke penalty and you have three choices: dropping a ball within two club lengths of where your ball lies, not nearer the hole; dropping a ball on a line from the hole through where your ball lies; and stroke and distance. Rule 19 is your guide to all of this.

The term 'unplayable' can mislead you. In this specific golfing situation it does not mean the ball is impossible to play but rather that the player, for whatever reason, reckons he would be better off taking the one stroke penalty in order to play from somewhere other than from where it lies. For example, you ball is lying comfortably on manicured turf but but there is a wall crossing the fairway so close that you doubt your ability to lift your ball over it and so you go back on the line from the hole to where you are confident you can do it. it costs a stroke but gives you certainty for your next shot rather than the risk of hitting the wall. It's a judgment call and it is solely the player's call to make.

 

[backwoodsman]

Short answer is ... it depends.

If it was a hole made by the greenkeepers whilst they were looking after the course, then it counts as ground under repair and you get free relief under 16.1. But if it wasnt made under those circumstances, then you'd have to declare it unplayable and take relief under penalty - rule 19.

And I dont see how you'd know the difference? But either way, you get relief so I'd suggest taking relief with 1Cl (the lesser of the differing limits) then asking whether you need to add a penalty when you finish.

 

[Orikoru]

Short answer is ... it depends.

If it was a hole made by the greenkeepers whilst they were looking after the course, then it counts as ground under repair and you get free relief under 16.1. But if it wasnt made under those circumstances, then you'd have to declare it unplayable and take relief under penalty - rule 19.

And I dont see how you'd know the difference? But either way, you get relief so I'd suggest taking relief with 1Cl (the lesser of the differing limits) then asking whether you need to add a penalty when you finish.

What if it was made by an animal?

 

[backwoodsman]

What if it was made by an animal?

I think if it was "... exactly the same shape and size as a hole on the green ..." then I think you can discount that possibility?

 

[Orikoru]

I think if it was "... exactly the same shape and size as a hole on the green ..." then I think you can discount that possibility?

I didn't think he meant the hole had literally been made by a greenkeeper's hole-cutter, I thought he was just trying to stress how deep it was. Anyway, I asked out of curiosity as much as anything.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Was it a hole that had previously held a post, eg a 150 yard marker?

 

[backwoodsman]

I didn't think he meant the hole had literally been made by a greenkeeper's hole-cutter, I thought he was just trying to stress how deep it was. Anyway, I asked out of curiosity as much as anything.

Perhaps the OP can provide more detail?

But given he stressed the word 'exactly', I suppose he was indicating it was small, round & neat - ie like a hole on the green. In which case, I think one can easily assume it was still not made by an animal.

 

[Oops!]

Perhaps the OP can provide more detail?

But given he stressed the word 'exactly', I suppose he was indicating it was small, round & neat - ie like a hole on the green. In which case, I think one can easily assume it was still not made by an animal.

That's exactly how it was !

A hole just like the ones on the greens : Perfectly round, and the same depth and diameter, so I presume it artificial and not made by animals.

And no, it wasn‘t marked as ground under repair (blue post).

As for a post, it wasn‘t deep enough.

In summary, I can say that this hole cost me one penalty stroke, which I find somewhat unfair because I had no influence over it, but well, it can't be changed ! That’s life !

That's golf !

 

[Neilds]

That's exactly how it was !

A hole just like the ones on the greens : Perfectly round, and the same depth and diameter, so I presume it artificial and not made by animals.

And no, it wasn‘t marked as ground under repair (blue post).

As for a post, it wasn‘t deep enough.

In summary, I can say that this hole cost me one penalty stroke, which I find somewhat unfair because I had no influence over it, but well, it can't be changed ! That’s life !

That's golf !

My guess, and it is a bit of a leap of faith, is that the hole was created by the grounds staff to get a plug of turf to repair some damage elsewhere on the course. Doesn't help in the rules bit though

 

[rulie]

That's exactly how it was !

A hole just like the ones on the greens : Perfectly round, and the same depth and diameter, so I presume it artificial and not made by animals.

And no, it wasn‘t marked as ground under repair (blue post).

As for a post, it wasn‘t deep enough.

In summary, I can say that this hole cost me one penalty stroke, which I find somewhat unfair because I had no influence over it, but well, it can't be changed ! That’s life !

That's golf !

Good conclusion - in golf, playing by the Rules makes it "fair".

 

[backwoodsman]

That's exactly how it was !

A hole just like the ones on the greens : Perfectly round, and the same depth and diameter, so I presume it artificial and not made by animals.

And no, it wasn‘t marked as ground under repair (blue post).

As for a post, it wasn‘t deep enough.

In summary, I can say that this hole cost me one penalty stroke, which I find somewhat unfair because I had no influence over it, but well, it can't be changed ! That’s life !

That's golf !

In which case I'd suggest (and, only suggest) that it was a hole made by a greenkeeper in the care of the course. (Although for what reason I can't guess). So, it seems to me you were likely to get free drop as it would be ground under repair (and not need to be marked)

 

[Oops!]

In which case I'd suggest (and, only suggest) that it was a hole made by a greenkeeper in the care of the course. (Although for what reason I can't guess). So, it seems to me you were likely to get free drop as it would be ground under repair (and not need to be marked)

Thanks, your thought is encouraging, but to be honest, the probability that this corresponds to the facts is, as you seem to see it yourself, IMVHO, close to zero.

And since I don't play in tournaments, but only against myself, I would ultimately only be cheating myself !

 

[salfordlad]

If there was any uncertaintly about whether this hole was potentially a free relief situation, the player could have made use of Rule 20.1c(3) by playing a ball under two different rules. This means taking relief within 1 club-length not nearer the hole - applying Rule 16.1 free relief OR 19.2c lateral unplayable ball penalty relief and seeking guidance from the Committee on the status of that hole (a photo might help) before submitting the card. If the decision was free relief, no penalty; if the decision was no free relief, the unplayable one stroke penalty gets added.
See clarification 20.1c(3)/6 for more information.

 

[rulie]

If there was any uncertaintly about whether this hole was potentially a free relief situation, the player could have made use of Rule 20.1c(3) by playing a ball under two different rules. This means taking relief within 1 club-length not nearer the hole - applying Rule 16.1 free relief OR 19.2c lateral unplayable ball penalty relief and seeking guidance from the Committee on the status of that hole (a photo might help) before submitting the card. If the decision was free relief, no penalty; if the decision was no free relief, the unplayable one stroke penalty gets added.
See clarification 20.1c(3)/6 for more information.

Just an addendum, the player must declare, before playing a ball, the ball that he wishes to score with. If not so declared, the first ball played will be the ball chosen by default. The player must report the playing of two balls to the Committee before returning his card.

 

[Slab]

Just an addendum, the player must declare, before playing a ball, the ball that he wishes to score with. If not so declared, the first ball played will be the ball chosen by default. The player must report the playing of two balls to the Committee before returning his card.

Thanks for that, I did wonder if that aspect of playing two balls was still in effect after the raft of 2019 changes

What’s the kind of scenario where a player might ‘claim’ the ball that carries the higher penalty option? Why wouldn’t they always claim the ball with fewer/no penalty strokes?
i.e is there ever added penalties if they choose the free relief ball and it transpires no free relief was permitted

 

[salfordlad]

Just an addendum, the player must declare, before playing a ball, the ball that he wishes to score with. If not so declared, the first ball played will be the ball chosen by default. The player must report the playing of two balls to the Committee before returning his card.

This "choose" aspect is irrelevant when only one ball is played under two rules. The question for the Committee is whether the penalty applies or not. This is how it is explained in 20.1c(3)/6. There would be no reason for the player to consider use of 20.1c(3) if the player is happy to proceed under the unplayable ball rule - the player can always choose unplayable except in a penalty area.

 

[backwoodsman]

If there was any uncertaintly about whether this hole was potentially a free relief situation, the player could have made use of Rule 20.1c(3) by playing a ball under two different rules. This means taking relief within 1 club-length not nearer the hole - applying Rule 16.1 free relief OR 19.2c lateral unplayable ball penalty relief and seeking guidance from the Committee on the status of that hole (a photo might help) before submitting the card. If the decision was free relief, no penalty; if the decision was no free relief, the unplayable one stroke penalty gets added.
See clarification 20.1c(3)/6 for more information.

Which, I think, was what I said in post #3 ? (Albeit I didn’t quote the rule/clarification)

 

[Swango1980]

I read the question wrong. I thought they were asking whether they simply gets an additional penalty, on top of unplayable penalty, simply because they took the ball out of the hole with their HAND

 

[salfordlad]

Which, I think, was what I said in post #3 ? (Albeit I didn’t quote the rule/clarification)

You did sir! But I didn't read it closely and it didn't cover the why/how this is permitted.