Penalty for Lowry

[Imurg]

I heard Graeme Storm on the radio talking about this. Apparently they have a rules official in a truck / room watching screens and if they see any potential issues they check them out. This person advised the official with the group of the penalty. The referee with the group hadn't seen it.

Unless they're watching every shot by every player.....I feel that's unfair.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

You'd let the likes of pat reed just get away with it ?

Unless they have cameras following every single group then any video footage shouldn’t be used

 

[Deleted member 35927]

Unless they have cameras following every single group then any video footage shouldn’t be used

So youd allow cheats then ?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

So youd allow cheats then ?

How do you know players without cameras on them aren’t cheating

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Unless they're watching every shot by every player.....I feel that's unfair.

Quite possibly. Just the rub of the green I guess. The players know how it works

 

[salfordlad]

I'd expect a non-response like that from you.
What is it that makes you disagree with people and then refuse to explain why, other than saying "it should be obvious" (or words to that effect)?
If they ask for an explanation, it's NOT obvious to them, and since it's obvious to you, why not be kind and actually explain?

But if you're replacing the ball, there's no advantage anywhere on the course.
I still haven't heard a good reason why accidentally moving your ball on the green no longer attracts a penalty.

The RB view:

"
16. No Penalty for Moving a Ball on the Putting Green
Current Rule: Under Rule 18-2, if a player (or opponent) accidentally causes the player’s ball to move anywhere on the course, there is a one-stroke penalty (unless one of several exceptions applies).
2019 Rule: Under Rule 13.1d, there will no longer be a penalty if a player (or opponent) accidentally causes the player’s ball to move on the putting green.
The substance of this Rule change has already been implemented as of 1 January 2017 by authorizing Committees to adopt a Local Rule that eliminates the penalty for accidentally moving a ball on the putting green.
Reasons for Change:
 The shape, slope and condition of many putting greens today increase the chances that a ball at rest on the putting green might move, and it can be difficult to determine whether a player caused the ball to move or whether the ball was moved by wind or other natural causes.
 When a ball moves while the player is doing nothing more than taking normal actions to prepare for a stroke, it can seem unfair for the player to be penalized.
 Most “ball moved” situations occur on the putting green, involve minimal movement of the ball, frequently occur when the player is taking reasonable actions to prepare for a stroke and the ball can be easily replaced.
 These considerations are not the same when the ball lies off the putting green, and so the penalty will continue to apply (with exceptions, such as accidentally moving a ball during search) to a player or opponent in those circumstances to reinforce the principle that the ball should be played as it lies and that players should continue to exercise care when near to a ball in play."

 

[Deleted member 35927]

How do you know players without cameras on them aren’t cheating

I'm sure they are and if seen they should be penalised accordingly. you seriously want to let's cheats go unpunished ? I'm shocked and amazed.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I'm sure they are and if seen they should be penalised accordingly. you seriously want to let's cheats go unpunished ? I'm shocked and amazed.

When did I say I want to see “cheats go unpunished”

I said that video replays shouldn’t be used for rule breaks unless it’s on everyone

How can you see rule breaks if not everyone has a camera on them

 

[salfordlad]

The problem I've got with it, is the camera really has to zoom in to capture it, otherwise no one is none the wiser.
It's also not the same for every player because there cant be a camera on every situation to 'see' if a ball moves, which isn't right in my opinion, should be the same scrutiny for every player if that is the route we are going down, I'm sure if he noticed, he would of called it on himself.

If it cannot be seen by naked eye it is not a penalty. The official ruling - penalty - is because the player could have seen the movement they caused and failed to recognise their careless action that caused the ball to move and then played from the wrong place. The rule cannot be clearer, player must take care near the ball and not cause their ball to move.
Jon Rahm was similarly pinged at the 2020 Memorial tournament. The USGA provided a thorough explanation:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rulesarticles/statement-on-jon-rahm-ruling-at-memorial-tournament.html#:~:text=Statement%20on%20Jon%20Rahm%20Ruling%20at%20the%20Memorial%20Tournament,naked%20eye%E2%80%9D%20standard%20is%20required.

 

[Deleted member 35927]

Wym

When did I say I want to see “cheats go unpunished”

I said that video replays shouldn’t be used for rule breaks unless it’s on everyone

How can you see rule breaks if not everyone has a camera on them

So if pat scrapes a little sand away on his back swing and the only person to see is a camera man he should be allowed to get away with it? You know this exactly what youre saying

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Wym

So if pat scrapes a little sand away on his back swing and the only person to see is a camera man he should be allowed to get away with it? You know this exactly what youre saying

You are trying aren’t you

You appear to be too narrow minded to even see what’s being said

Will say it again

Imo telly replays should only be used if they have cameras on every group

Hopefully that helps you understand

 

[Deleted member 35927]

You are trying aren’t you

You appear to be too narrow minded to even see what’s being said

Will say it again

Imo telly replays should only be used if they have cameras on every group

Hopefully that helps you understand

Yes and as a follow up I'm asking if they don't but an infringement is seen , should it be acted upon. As is the status quo ?
Its impractical to have cameras on everyone

 

[cliveb]

You must be joking.

No, I wasn't. You do know what REPLACING means? (I'm sure you do).
The only explanation I can think of for your comment is that it's way more difficult to accurately replace a ball in the rough than it is on a green.

The RB view:

"
16. No Penalty for Moving a Ball on the Putting Green
Current Rule: Under Rule 18-2, if a player (or opponent) accidentally causes the player’s ball to move anywhere on the course, there is a one-stroke penalty (unless one of several exceptions applies).
2019 Rule: Under Rule 13.1d, there will no longer be a penalty if a player (or opponent) accidentally causes the player’s ball to move on the putting green.
The substance of this Rule change has already been implemented as of 1 January 2017 by authorizing Committees to adopt a Local Rule that eliminates the penalty for accidentally moving a ball on the putting green.
Reasons for Change:
 The shape, slope and condition of many putting greens today increase the chances that a ball at rest on the putting green might move, and it can be difficult to determine whether a player caused the ball to move or whether the ball was moved by wind or other natural causes.
 When a ball moves while the player is doing nothing more than taking normal actions to prepare for a stroke, it can seem unfair for the player to be penalized.
 Most “ball moved” situations occur on the putting green, involve minimal movement of the ball, frequently occur when the player is taking reasonable actions to prepare for a stroke and the ball can be easily replaced.
 These considerations are not the same when the ball lies off the putting green, and so the penalty will continue to apply (with exceptions, such as accidentally moving a ball during search) to a player or opponent in those circumstances to reinforce the principle that the ball should be played as it lies and that players should continue to exercise care when near to a ball in play."

Finally someone has provided the rationale for the difference. Thank you.

 

[BrianM]

If it cannot be seen by naked eye it is not a penalty. The official ruling - penalty - is because the player could have seen the movement they caused and failed to recognise their careless action that caused the ball to move and then played from the wrong place. The rule cannot be clearer, player must take care near the ball and not cause their ball to move.
Jon Rahm was similarly pinged at the 2020 Memorial tournament. The USGA provided a thorough explanation:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rulesarticles/statement-on-jon-rahm-ruling-at-memorial-tournament.html#:~:text=Statement%20on%20Jon%20Rahm%20Ruling%20at%20the%20Memorial%20Tournament,naked%20eye%E2%80%9D%20standard%20is%20required.

The bottom line is, he never seen it, so shouldn’t be a penalty then?

 

[Steven Rules]

The bottom line is, he never seen it, so shouldn’t be a penalty then?

The bottom line is that the "naked eye" standard doesn't require that it be the player's naked eye, nor does it require the player to have actually seen the ball move with the player’s own naked eye.

The passage that salfordlad provided said: "the movement could have been visible for a golfer standing at address had he or she been looking at the ball."

 

[rulefan]

The bottom line is, he never seen it, so shouldn’t be a penalty then?

Presumably they took the same view as in Rahm's case.
(the referee) determined that the movement could have been visible for a golfer standing at address had he or she been looking at the ball. As such, they applied the general penalty for a breach of Rule 9.4.

 

[jim8flog]

I'd expect a non-response like that from you.
What is it that makes you disagree with people and then refuse to explain why, other than saying "it should be obvious" (or words to that effect)?
If they ask for an explanation, it's NOT obvious to them, and since it's obvious to you, why not be kind and actually explain?

But if you're replacing the ball, there's no advantage anywhere on the course.
I still haven't heard a good reason why accidentally moving your ball on the green no longer attracts a penalty.

What I can tell was the change came following an incident with Padraig Harrington. I cannot tell you the exact details but I am sure you could find it somewhere. It provoked an immediate change in the the DQ penalty for wrong score and probably the rest followed albeit some years later

USGA gives it's reasons here

 

[Swango1980]

Presumably he'd have been OK had he not placed his club in ground next to ball?

You ground your club next to ball, with an unstable foundation of grass, it is a risk. If your ball moves, you probably only have yourself to blame.

 

[BrianM]

The bottom line is that the "naked eye" standard doesn't require that it be the player's naked eye, nor does it require the player to have actually seen the ball move with the player’s own naked eye.

The passage that salfordlad provided said: "the movement could have been visible for a golfer standing at address had he or she been looking at the ball."

It was penalty by camera work, no one’s naked eye though, different if someone there seen it, playing partner, caddy or referee….

 

[Swango1980]

It was penalty by camera work, no one’s naked eye though, different if someone there seen it, playing partner, caddy or referee….

Given that it is extremely unlikely anybody else can actually see your ball buried in rough, where would you draw the line?

A player could hammer his club into the grass, while looking towards green. Ball could move significantly and they won't see it. Camera could pick up that movement.

Would we just say no penalty? Knowing that had they been looking down, they'd have to call it? Even as the player, I'd be uncomfortable with that. Knowing I got away with a penalty offence, and perhaps having some accusing me of not admitting to moving the ball.