Outside Agency

[dronfield]

Hi

Yesterday in a comp one of my playing partners hit his ball into a stream that runs between the hole we were playing and the next. Before we had got to the stream, a player who was playing the next hole and looking in the stream for his ball, reached into the stream & picked up my PPs ball (thinking it was a find). We shouted to the player advising that it was one of our balls, and thinking he was being helpful, he threw the ball back across onto the edge of our fairway.

We were not sure what action to now take - my PP played the ball as it lay, under the " outside agency" guidance, but also played a 2nd ball under a penalty drop from the stream. As it happened he scored a 6 with both balls and so no issue re the medal round score.

Can someone pleasd advise what the correct procedure is here - I think the outside agency applies if say a dog walker had thrown his ball back, but what about a fellow competitor as happened here?

Cheers

Rich

 

[Colin L]

If the player whose ball had been lifted out of the stream by the other player would have played his ball from where it had been lying in the penalty area (i.e the stream) , he could have replaced it without penalty and played it [see Rule 9.6]. If he would have taken relief from the penalty area, he had two options if it was marked with yellow posts or lines - back on the line relief or stroke and distance. If it was marked with red posts or lines he had the additional option of taking relief within two club-lengths of where his ball had last crossed the edge of the penalty area. One penalty stroke for any of those options, [See Rule 17]

What he could not do was to play from where the ball ended up after being thrown across the stream by the other player. He did well to play the two balls, the one that would count obviously being the one played under penalty.

Some new terms for you to learn! Outside agency has disappeared and we now refer to outside influences. Fellow Competitor has also disappeared and we now just have another player or other players. Playing partner didn't exist in the rules anyway and is just another player in your group. Streams, ponds ditchs and other water courses are now called penalty areas.

 

[rulefan]

9.6
Ball Lifted or Moved by Outside Influence
If it is known or virtually certain that an outside influence (including another player in stroke play or another ball) lifted or moved a player’s ball:

• There is no penalty, and
• The ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2).

So his second ball was correct. Did he report to the Committee and how did they rule? But what do you mean by 'guidance'?

 

[backwoodsman]

If you know that a ball has been moved by an outside agency (now an outside influence) then you put the (or "a") ball back where it was moved from. And then proceed accordingly as if it hadn't been moved

 

[backwoodsman]

And a "fellow competitor" is indeed an outside influence unless they are an opponent against who you are playing a match, or they are a partner in your side of your match.

 

[rulefan]

But what do you mean by 'guidance'?

I see which rule you were thinking about but that is not applicable.
11.1 Ball in Motion Accidentally Hits Person or Outside Influence
b. Ball Must Be Played as It Lies
If a player’s ball in motion accidentally hits any person or outside influence, the ball must be played as it lies,

 

[Backache]

I see which rule you were thinking about but that is not applicable.
11.1 Ball in Motion Accidentally Hits Person or Outside Influence
b. Ball Must Be Played as It Lies
If a player’s ball in motion accidentally hits any person or outside influence, the ball must be played as it lies,

As a matter of interest could 11.2 c apply if you thought the ball nay have been moving in the stream when the person picked it up?

 

[dronfield]

I see which rule you were thinking about but that is not applicable.
11.1 Ball in Motion Accidentally Hits Person or Outside Influence
b. Ball Must Be Played as It Lies
If a player’s ball in motion accidentally hits any person or outside influence, the ball must be played as it lies,

Thanks Rulefan (and everyone else), for the clarification. At the time we were unsure which rule was applicable (confused re possible outside influence scenario), hense decision to play 2 balls.
i did know that hazzards were now called penalty areas, but was trying to give an accurate description of the actual incident that occured.
Much appreciated.
Rich

 

[rulefan]

As a matter of interest could 11.2 c apply if you thought the ball nay have been moving in the stream when the person picked it up?

Yes it would.

 

[Backache]

Yes it would.

Thanks

 

[Colin L]

But it would only make a difference to the outcome if the player wanted to play the ball from the penalty area and his reference point for his drop would therefore be where he estimated the ball would have come to rest. If he decided to take relief from the penalty area, his reference point would still be the spot where his ball last crossed the edge of the stream.