On Course Debate

[Mattyj3nks]

Morning all,

I played last week in a competition to get my final scorecard handed in to get my official handicap.

Im new to the whole competion rules etc but had to get between 2 guys in my fourball as they were kicking off.

The situation was......a guy put his ball right off the tee and into some bushed so played a provisional which finished on the fairway.
We were looking for his ball which was in the bushes, he could physically get to the ball but there was no way he could play a shot as it was right next to a small tree trunk.

The guy who played the shot said he could drop a shot and place the ball a clubs length outside of the bushed but no closer to the hole from where the ball went it.
The other guy said he has found his ball and its in play so ha has to play it.


This turned into a very heated argument.

I would appreciate what the correct rules would be so i am aware for future if this ever happens again.

Thanks

 

[Deleted member 18121]

The guy who hit the shot is right:

http://www.randa.org/en/Playing-Golf/Quick-Guide-to-the-Rules/Ball-Unplayable.aspx

Except he could have gone 2 clubs lengths.

I'm sure I've read that you can declare a ball unplayable at any time under this rule.

 

[FairwayDodger]

He has four options...

1. Play the ball as it lies (sounds like that's not viable)

Or, under penalty of one shot

2. Take a drop two club lengths from where the ball lies, not nearer the hole. (If that doesn't get him out of the bush it's tough)
3. Take a drop by moving back in a straight line as far he likes in line with the spot where the ball finished and the pin.
4. Go back to where the previous shot was played from (the tee in this case)

 

[hovis]

Both people were wrong. You dont have to play it as it lies and if you do decide to take a unplayable its two club lengths from the ball not the bush. Sometimes 2 clubs isn't enough to get you out the bushes. Thats tough luck

 

[Mattyj3nks]

Ok so if 2 club lengths still doesnt get him out of the bush what are his options?
carry on with his provisional so would have been 3rd shot off the tee?

 

[FairwayDodger]

Ok so if 2 club lengths still doesnt get him out of the bush what are his options?
carry on with his provisional so would have been 3rd shot off the tee?

See post #3

Once the original ball is found the provisional is irrelevant and cannot be used.

 

[CliveW]

If the two club lengths doesn't take him out of the bush, he can drop within the bush, and then, under penalty of one shot, take another drop two club lengths from where the ball landed, assuming it isn't nearer the hole.

 

[Robster59]

These are the reasons why I carry a copy of the rules with me at all times. The number of people who claim they know the rules and are in fact wrong is frightening. I don't pretend to know them all but the one above is pretty basic.

 

[tsped83]

He has four options...

1. Play the ball as it lies (sounds like that's not viable)

Or, under penalty of one shot

2. Take a drop two club lengths from where the ball lies, not nearer the hole. (If that doesn't get him out of the bush it's tough)
3. Take a drop by moving back in a straight line as far he likes in line with the spot where the ball finished and the pin.
4. Go back to where the previous shot was played from (the tee in this case)

The end.

 

[pbrown7582]

See post #3

Once the original ball is found the provisional is irrelevant and cannot be used.

just to reiterate once the original ball is found the provisional is null and void and should be pick up, meaning if the player wishes to take the return to the original spot option he trudges back to the tee to play again despite the provisional sitting nicely in the fairway.

 

[woody69]

Ok so if 2 club lengths still doesnt get him out of the bush what are his options?
carry on with his provisional so would have been 3rd shot off the tee?

The provisional is gone completely and for scenarios exactly like this. As FD has pointed out his options, if the provisional was an possibility the it would influence his decision as to which step to take.

1. Can't play original so declare it as unplayable
2. Option 1 play within 2 club lengths no nearer the hole - hmmm that still leaves me in the bush
3. Option 2 drop moving back in a straight line as far he likes in line with the spot where the ball finished and the pin - hmm that leaves me a drop in a dodgy lie
4. Option 3 go back to pin - oh I'll do that as I hit my provisional and it's nicely in the middle of the fairway! Nope, not an option. He has to go back and try to his the shot again and hopefully it will be more like his provisional and less like the original.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

The provisional is gone completely and for scenarios exactly like this. As FD has pointed out his options, if the provisional was an possibility the it would influence his decision as to which step to take.

1. Can't play original so declare it as unplayable
2. Option 1 play within 2 club lengths no nearer the hole - hmmm that still leaves me in the bush
3. Option 2 drop moving back in a straight line as far he likes in line with the spot where the ball finished and the pin - hmm that leaves me a drop in a dodgy lie
4. Option 3 go back to pin - oh I'll do that as I hit my provisional and it's nicely in the middle of the fairway! Nope, not an option. He has to go back and try to his the shot again and hopefully it will be more like his provisional and less like the original.

Excellent summary

 

[Skithepowder]

Can I ask about option 1 and 2? I am not a member of a club and only play casually with a few friends, never played a competition and don't proclaim to know the rules well at all but am starting to get into it more so I should probably learn them!

So in my example, say you hit the ball along the blue arrow into the trees:

Option 1 - play within 2 club lengths no nearer the hole, that can be anywhere within 2 club lengths no nearer the hole right?
Option 2 drop moving back in a straight line as far he likes in line with the spot where the ball finished and the pin, so that means going back from the balls position along the dotted purple line (in line with the hole)? In this example above this would never really help as you'll always still be in those trees? Is the only way to get out of those trees to play from the tee again then? Does it make any difference if you were to do this on your second shot? You wouldn't then play a provisional from where you took your 2nd shot would you?

I always thought you could drop from behind where the ball went into the hazard but no closer to the hole, ie along path of ball or dotted blue line, I am actually thinking now that is only valid for actual hazards? Or is it valid if it is not a tee shot? Is there a rule about playing on a line with where the ball entered a hazard no closer to the hole that is more than 2 club lengths? Is it because this is just in trees not a hazard or am I completely making things up and you always have to draw a line between the ball and the hole and then extend that line backwards and drop somewhere on that line regardless?

 

[duncan mackie]

View attachment 16819
Can I ask about option 1 and 2? I am not a member of a club and only play casually with a few friends, never played a competition and don't proclaim to know the rules well at all but am starting to get into it more so I should probably learn them!

So in my example, say you hit the ball along the blue arrow into the trees:

Option 1 - play within 2 club lengths no nearer the hole, that can be anywhere within 2 club lengths no nearer the hole right?
Option 2 drop moving back in a straight line as far he likes in line with the spot where the ball finished and the pin, so that means going back from the balls position along the dotted purple line (in line with the hole)? In this example above this would never really help as you'll always still be in those trees? Is the only way to get out of those trees to play from the tee again then? Does it make any difference if you were to do this on your second shot? You wouldn't then play a provisional from where you took your 2nd shot would you?

I always thought you could drop from behind where the ball went into the hazard but no closer to the hole, ie along path of ball or dotted blue line, I am actually thinking now that is only valid for actual hazards? Or is it valid if it is not a tee shot? Is there a rule about playing on a line with where the ball entered a hazard no closer to the hole that is more than 2 club lengths? Is it because this is just in trees not a hazard or am I completely making things up and you always have to draw a line between the ball and the hole and then extend that line backwards and drop somewhere on that line regardless?

Most of what you have posted is correct but, if I read you correctly (there isn't a dotted blue line!) you have it wrong re hazards. When your ball enters a water hazard the point at which the ball last crosses the hazard margin effectively becomes the position of your ball in the trees - ie you use the purple dotted line for both, never the blue one.
For those wishing to pick me up on the issues of yellow or red stakes etc I am only comparing the ' back on a line from the hole' options here !

 

[Skithepowder]

Ok, thanks. So are you ever allowed to drop back along the solid blue line, ie the line you played the ball into the trees, in the situation above, or only ever 2 club lengths along that solid blue line from where the ball finishes?

 

[duncan mackie]

Ok, thanks. So are you ever allowed to drop back along the solid blue line, ie the line you played the ball into the trees, in the situation above, or only ever 2 club lengths along that solid blue line from where the ball finishes?

2cl will depend on the rule in play but no, there is no direction involved in 2cl other than not nearer the hole (than whatever depending on the relevant rule)

 

[Skithepowder]

Right so you could never play say 4 clubs back along the solid blue line in the direction it entered the trees, even if it was your 2nd shot from the fairway?

 

[Backache]

Can I ask about option 1 and 2? I am not a member of a club and only play casually with a few friends, never played a competition and don't proclaim to know the rules well at all but am starting to get into it more so I should probably learn them!

If you are wanting to learn the most commonly encountered rules and procedures for various situations the R&A do a pretty good quick guide.
http://www.randa.org/en/Playing-Golf/Quick-Guide-to-the-Rules.aspx

 

[Oddsocks]

These are the reasons why I carry a copy of the rules with me at all times. The number of people who claim they know the rules and are in fact wrong is frightening. I don't pretend to know them all but the one above is pretty basic.

This, it's the only way! I use an illustrated version which gives clear answers with images to avoid any confusion , also makes it easy to quick reference with the side sub categories. It also quotes All rule codes

http://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/391251830242

 

[MashieNiblick]

Right so you could never play say 4 clubs back along the solid blue line in the direction it entered the trees, even if it was your 2nd shot from the fairway?

You can drop the ball within 2 club lengths of where it lies under penalty of 1 stroke multiple times if you wish to in order to escape an unplayable lie, as long you do this sequentially and drop the ball and add a stroke each time (i.e you can't just measure 6 club lengths, drop the ball and add 3 strokes, you have to measure 2 club lengths drop the ball, then measure again etc).

There is no specific provision to drop along the line the ball entered the hazard or bush out of bounds etc. That is a myth. It probably arises from confusion with the option to drop as far back on a line from the point where the ball last crossed the margin of a water hazard with people forgetting the requirement that you have to keep that point between you and the hole. It may also be due to the fact that if you hit straight into a water hazard which is directly in front of you that may effectively result in you dropping back along the line the ball entered the hazard, but that is just by chance rather than design. Equally people may get similarly confused with the unplayable options (i.e. 2 club lengths in any direction, not nearer the hole, and going back as far as you like on a line keeping the point where the ball was between you and the hole) and somehow wrongly conflate the 2 options.

In these situations your options are the same whether you played from the tee or the fairway.

The quick guide which Backache posted a link to has good diagrams showing where to drop in particular situations.

You can also get a full copy of the Rules free at pretty much any club. There's usually a box in the bar or pro shop. Get one to keep in your bag.