Odds on Hibs Going Straight Back Up

[Deleted member 15344]

The league is certainly no worse and any of the players that were with Rangers are playing elsewhere and are still involved in the National team,their talents have certainly not diminished due to them leaving Rangers.

For me the National Team is better because we have got rid of the feckless clown that was in charge,nothing to do with the league being better or worse for whatever reason.

Sounds about right to me :thup:

 

[Dodger]

Dodger we went under because one man (craig whyte) did not pay a tax bill we could easily have afforded , prefering to fill his pocket and the guys stepping in to purchase the club afterwards wanted the slate wiped clean as they couldn't take the gamble on the EBT case (which we won).

That's the simplified version. Clear enough?

Out of curiosity, do you attack Hearts, Killie, Dunfermline, Dundee, Motherwell etc etc as much for their clubs financial mismanagement?

The financial mismanagement started long before Moonbeams jumped ship and chucked it over to Whyte.

I reserve the right to point the finger at any club but I know that pointing it firmly at your lot always gets a rise regardless of how correct my points are and never ceases to amuse me.

And if the boot was on the other foot.......it's all good fun and I hope you do take it that way.

 

[c1973]

The financial mismanagement started long before Moonbeams jumped ship and chucked it over to Whyte.

I reserve the right to point the finger at any club but I know that pointing it firmly at your lot always gets a rise regardless of how correct my points are and never ceases to amuse me.

And if the boot was on the other foot.......it's all good fun and I hope you do take it that way.

I do take it that way.:thup: you're wrong about the boot though, years back I remember talking with my mate (a jungle regular) saying I hoped you lot never folded ( prior to the bunnet) as I felt the game needed both clubs.

I will concede I get pissed at the untruths (but that's me in general tbf) and the ones who load the bullets for others to fire the gun so to speak. At least you fire your own gun, even when the sights are out.

 

[williamalex1]

Comedy Gold.

Butcher...what exactly has he ever done?

Rare Steaks, well done now .:thup:

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You see Phil that you keep telling us that don't support t'Rangers or Celtic that we need t'Rangers in Scottish Premiership asap or we're done for. And we keep saying that we hear all you say - and agree that much of it may factually be true - but we do not draw the same conclusion. Indeed we keep saying that actually, though things are clearly not 100% brilliant with Scottish football, on a number of fronts there are many positives - especially in respect of the fans experiences and opportunities other clubs are getting,

 

[Slab]

But only one winner possible of the league ?

No clubs able to get into the group stage of the Europa

League without a sponser and drop in telly money

Celtic are the highest co efficent in Europe at 62 - below even Fulham then Rangers at 92 - so in danger of losing European slots in further qualifying rounds

Got the country at 23 in Europe below teams like Cyprus and Israel and a points drop from last year - currently at 3.250

I think you might be focusing too much on the Europe factor when considering its impact to how Scottish football is doing

Understandable given how many of the 'top players' in England wouldn't sign if European comps did not exist & it was just league football (but perhaps that says more about the EPL than SPL)

Old firm having good runs in Europe only ever helped the Old firm & widened the gap to the rest, there is squat diddly benefit for Scottish football in that (& no, getting the 3rd placed team one qualifying round further due to a higher coefficient is not a benefit if the 3rd team is artificially so detached from 1st & 2nd that they cant take advantage of a trip into Europe)

Is it purely coincidental that the top English division only started to recover from its near death experience when English clubs were banned from Europe for 5 years and forced to concentrate efforts on league footie?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I think you might be focusing too much on the Europe factor when considering its impact to how Scottish football is doing

Understandable given how many of the 'top players' in England wouldn't sign if European comps did not exist & it was just league football (but perhaps that says more about the EPL than SPL)

Thats valid around the whole of Europe - playing in European football is the next step up from the domestic leagues - he gives the players a wider stage to perform on as well as bringing in extra funding for the clubs that play in Europe.

Countries clubs doing well in Europe strengthens the domestic leagues because it attracts the better players. Players leave clubs that arent in Europe - clubs struggle to sign players when they are not competing in Europe - its a harsh fact ( one we have witnessed at Liverpool )

Old firm having good runs in Europe only ever helped the Old firm & widened the gap to the rest, there is squat diddly benefit for Scottish football in that (& no, getting the 3rd placed team one qualifying round further due to a higher coefficient is not a benefit if the 3rd team is artificially so detached from 1st & 2nd that they cant take advantage of a trip into Europe)

what about other teams having good runs in Europe ? Or is it just Rangers and Celtic that qualify each year ?

Is it purely coincidental that the top English division only started to recover from its near death experience when English clubs were banned from Europe for 5 years and forced to concentrate efforts on league footie?

Started to recover from what ? Being banned from Europe meant clubs like Everton didnt have a run at the European cup and lost out on additional revenue and also lost players to clubs abroad or bigger clubs with more money. Being out of Europe didnt help the English clubs.

Going back in did.

Without the big teams in the league yes it becomes more "competitive" in a way - but that doesnt mean its "better" - the Welsh League is competitve but lacks the quality - Scottish football has the possibility to go that way - which is a shame as used to love watching it in the 80's.

If a European league ever got formed and teams like Liverpool , Man Utd and Arsenal etc left - the EPL would be poorer - other teams could win the title but overall the league wouldnt be better.

Leagues need big teams - the Scottish Prem needs the Old Firm strong.

 

[StuartD]

Where do you start.

Crowds are up with every team apart from Celtic
Every city in Scotland has been free of the minority of these fuds in their cities.
The Silverware has been shared through four new teams
The corrupt SFA are clueless on how to justify their Armageddon statement.
Footballs better
Lots of young talent now being developed and not being media groomed by the Daily Record as the Huns next big signing
Better all round feeling about our game.
Scotland's coefficient higher than in the last 15 years
National team doing better.
Etc etc.

Your feelings as a supporter about a breath of fresh air in the game as trophies have been spread out can’t be denied. You could even claim that without Celtic it would be even better. But are those in charge of your club saying the same?

Despite what you claim, last season crowds did NOT go up in 7 out of the 10 clubs who were in SPL with Rangers. 6 clubs crowds actually went down (see link)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22541130
It certainly looks crowds have been slightly better this season I admit.

However we now have a league with no sponsor money coming in, a renegotiated TV deal on less money from the outset, we are also having to hand money back to Sky/BT as viewing figures are not being met and also to cover costs of covering Rangers games at smaller grounds. We are now faced with further renegotiation to allow more championship coverage next season. Hopefully we can get a better deal this time.

Doncaster admitted in an open letter this week that the existing TV deal was dependant on 4 old firm games a season and that the TV companies were entitled to walk , so a renegotiated deal had to be agreed quickly and the old SPL agreed to cover the TV companies extra setup costs.

Our clubs are still dependant on the revenue streams that the TV deals generate. Although I still think it was a bit of a rash/daft comment by Reagan and I never believed it would happen, maybe the possibility of Armageddon was actually closer than we think.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Your feelings as a supporter about a breath of fresh air in the game as trophies have been spread out can’t be denied. You could even claim that without Celtic it would be even better. But are those in charge of your club saying the same?

Despite what you claim, last season crowds did NOT go up in 7 out of the 10 clubs who were in SPL with Rangers. 6 clubs crowds actually went down (see link)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22541130
It certainly looks crowds have been slightly better this season I admit.

However we now have a league with no sponsor money coming in, a renegotiated TV deal on less money from the outset, we are also having to hand money back to Sky/BT as viewing figures are not being met and also to cover costs of covering Rangers games at smaller grounds. We are now faced with further renegotiation to allow more championship coverage next season. Hopefully we can get a better deal this time.

Doncaster admitted in an open letter this week that the existing TV deal was dependant on 4 old firm games a season and that the TV companies were entitled to walk , so a renegotiated deal had to be agreed quickly and the old SPL agreed to cover the TV companies extra setup costs.

Our clubs are still dependant on the revenue streams that the TV deals generate. Although I still think it was a bit of a rash/daft comment by Reagan and I never believed it would happen, maybe the possibility of Armageddon was actually closer than we think.

As a Saints supporter I have to say that it's been a brilliant and very positive experience getting to our first Scottish Cup Final - and winning. And our experience with the Utd supporters in the final was also great - very friendly atmosphere outside and on the way to the ground. Inside - both sets of fans watching the football and supporting their team - and not watching and hurling abuse at the other set of fans. We will make about £1m from the Cup (prize money plus TV) and we hope to pick up a good bunch of new season ticket holders off the back of winning. And in August we go galivanting around Europe for hopefully a couple or three games - more if we get get through to group stage (unlikely but you never know). But Europe will never make us rich - but we are solvent - and today we are a happy club with a very happy support. And what's not to like about that.

 

[c1973]

I may be wrong in this first bit as I haven't actually saw any figures, but the story I heard was that the SPL were trading insolvent despite withholding Rangers 'winnings' and share of the TV money, hence that being part of the 5 way agreement.

I believe this had a lot to do with the formation of the new SPFL in addition to the SFL threatening to get their own TV deal with Rangers being their main selling point (which in all fairness is what should have happen in the first place).

Rangers may be the target for the whipping boys at the moment, but the fact is all the SPL clubs got a share of our winnings and only have a TV deal (and resultant cash) due to Rangers having to sign over media rights as part of the aforementioned 5 way agreement.

We may be despised, but y'all still fight for the crumbs from our table (and Celtics, it has to be said).


If we do fold (as has been constantly predicted for the past 18 months) the TV deals and sponsorships (if actually obtained) will be a pittance. Ask your chairmen how they run a club with pocket money coming through the turnstiles? Hate us all you want,as our song says '....No one likes us, we don't care' but don't be fooled into thinking Scottish football would be some sort of Utopia without us!

 

[Slab]

Thats valid around the whole of Europe - playing in European football is the next step up from the domestic leagues - he gives the players a wider stage to perform on as well as bringing in extra funding for the clubs that play in Europe.

Countries clubs doing well in Europe strengthens the domestic leagues because it attracts the better players. Players leave clubs that arent in Europe - clubs struggle to sign players when they are not competing in Europe - its a harsh fact ( one we have witnessed at Liverpool )



what about other teams having good runs in Europe ? Or is it just Rangers and Celtic that qualify each year ?



Started to recover from what ? Being banned from Europe meant clubs like Everton didnt have a run at the European cup and lost out on additional revenue and also lost players to clubs abroad or bigger clubs with more money. Being out of Europe didnt help the English clubs.

Going back in did.

Without the big teams in the league yes it becomes more "competitive" in a way - but that doesnt mean its "better" - the Welsh League is competitve but lacks the quality - Scottish football has the possibility to go that way - which is a shame as used to love watching it in the 80's.

If a European league ever got formed and teams like Liverpool , Man Utd and Arsenal etc left - the EPL would be poorer - other teams could win the title but overall the league wouldnt be better.

Leagues need big teams - the Scottish Prem needs the Old Firm strong.

I really think you're looking at this from a 'big team' perspective (maybe because of who you support) rather than a 'football' perspective

The Old firm weren't strong, they were utterly dominant! And that's not good for football. When is a monopoly ever good for anything? (& no they are not a duopoly, they are two sides of one coin)

It got to a point where they were attempting to vote themselves the absolute dominance of TV revenue and control of league matters

So a TV or league sponsorship deal that sees the overwhelming majority of revenue going to the dominant team is not good. its actually more competitive (& better for football) to have the Old firm getting an equal share of nothing than the lions share of everything

As SILH indicates, what exactly is the downside to football of the season his club have just had?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I really think you're looking at this from a 'big team' perspective (maybe because of who you support) rather than a 'football' perspective

The Old firm weren't strong, they were utterly dominant! And that's not good for football. When is a monopoly ever good for anything? (& no they are not a duopoly, they are two sides of one coin)

It got to a point where they were attempting to vote themselves the absolute dominance of TV revenue and control of league matters

So a TV or league sponsorship deal that sees the overwhelming majority of revenue going to the dominant team is not good. its actually more competitive (& better for football) to have the Old firm getting an equal share of nothing than the lions share of everything

As SILH indicates, what exactly is the downside to football of the season his club have just had?

Where as now you have a league that will only be won by one club

You have no sponser for the league and TV money decreasing rapidly

All things that all the clubs need to survive in the league or they drop all their costs ( wage bills reduced ) which drops the standards of players etc and the standard of the league drops.

Yes SILH team has just won a cup - that's great for his team , no denying that. Just as a non league team wining the FA trophy is great for them. Because that's the level it will head to

So of the fans are happy having a league on par with the Welsh league etc then continue to wish the Old Firm are not around. Scottish footballs future as a strong standard league depends on strong quality players - without the big clubs you won't have that.

 

[StuartD]

Where as now you have a league that will only be won by one club

You have no sponser for the league and TV money decreasing rapidly

All things that all the clubs need to survive in the league or they drop all their costs ( wage bills reduced ) which drops the standards of players etc and the standard of the league drops.

Yes SILH team has just won a cup - that's great for his team , no denying that. Just as a non league team wining the FA trophy is great for them. Because that's the level it will head to

So of the fans are happy having a league on par with the Welsh league etc then continue to wish the Old Firm are not around. Scottish footballs future as a strong standard league depends on strong quality players - without the big clubs you won't have that.

I might be speeking on behalf of others here but i think many would take life without the old firm. It might mean a poorer product in terms of quality but it will generate some excitement for fans of other clubs. Scottish football has been stale for years

 

[FairwayDodger]

I might be speeking on behalf of others here but i think many would take life without the old firm. It might mean a poorer product in terms of quality but it will generate some excitement for fans of other clubs. Scottish football has been stale for years

There's definitely an argument for that, Stuart, and clearly many already see a benefit. For me, however, losing one of the OF and not the other has only compounded the problem. We already know who's going to win the league next year and that's not good for anyone, not even Celtic (although they will console themselves with another title!). Some degree of competition is contrived with the "race for second".

Championship is looking exciting - four or five teams with a realistic chance of winning or at least getting into second place for the play off. Doesn't mean the football on show will be high quality though!

 

[Slab]

I might be speeking on behalf of others here but i think many would take life without the old firm. It might mean a poorer product in terms of quality but it will generate some excitement for fans of other clubs. Scottish football has been stale for years

Here here

1st choice would be to have them included because there are benefits but only as part of the league and not the purpose of it!

As for suggesting a demise to Welsh premier etc and to borrow a quote "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept"

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There's definitely an argument for that, Stuart, and clearly many already see a benefit. For me, however, losing one of the OF and not the other has only compounded the problem. We already know who's going to win the league next year and that's not good for anyone, not even Celtic (although they will console themselves with another title!). Some degree of competition is contrived with the "race for second".

Championship is looking exciting - four or five teams with a realistic chance of winning or at least getting into second place for the play off. Doesn't mean the football on show will be high quality though!

But we all know that with both of the OF in the scottish premiership there wasn't any competition (and rarely has been) between the other clubs for 2nd place. Rangers probably will get in premiership next season or season after but it may be a few years before they are back competing with Celtic for 1st and 2nd. Over these few years more money may come into the game (from TV, sponsors etc) that might help the other teams compete with Rangers for 2nd place. And that will be a good thing. But for us 'diddy' clubs - having Rangers back in the premiership battling with Celtic for 1st and 2nd is not top of our wish-list. I'm quite happy for the Hibees and Jam Tarts to get back up next season - leave Rangers where they are for season or two.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Phil the more you blether on about Scottish football the more you show that you have a poor understanding about what is reality.

You assume that The Rangers will saunter back to the SPL and everything will be hunky dory.
If they survive at all it will take them years for them to become competitive to Celtic again.

We certainly do not want the SPL to be like the EPL where the normal fan is priced out of watching his team and denied earning some local pride for his town/city.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Phil the more you blether on about Scottish football the more you show that you have a poor understanding about what is reality.

You assume that The Rangers will saunter back to the SPL and everything will be hunky dory.
If they survive at all it will take them years for them to become competitive to Celtic again.

We certainly do not want the SPL to be like the EPL where the normal fan is priced out of watching his team and denied earning some local pride for his town/city.

hear! hear! :thup:

 

[FairwayDodger]

But we all know that with both of the OF in the scottish premiership there wasn't any competition (and rarely has been) between the other clubs for 2nd place. Rangers probably will get in premiership next season or season after but it may be a few years before they are back competing with Celtic for 1st and 2nd. Over these few years more money may come into the game (from TV, sponsors etc) that might help the other teams compete with Rangers for 2nd place. And that will be a good thing. But for us 'diddy' clubs - having Rangers back in the premiership battling with Celtic for 1st and 2nd is not top of our wish-list. I'm quite happy for the Hibees and Jam Tarts to get back up next season - leave Rangers where they are for season or two.

Once again, I don't follow your logic. If your so-called "diddy" clubs (your term not mine) are happy battling for second what was the difference in battling for third while there was at least a viable competition for the title?

The premiership will be a non-event next year, only the drama of Hibs relegation provided any interest this year. Of course, that's not the fault of any of the teams who'll be in their doing their best, it is what it is.

In contrast, it'll be interesting to see who comes up next year, by no means a formality that Rangers will manage it or even that it'll be two of the "big three". And, yes, even if Rangers come up they'll be years away from mounting a serious challenge.

 

[c1973]

Phil the more you blether on about Scottish football the more you show that you have a poor understanding about what is reality.

You assume that The Rangers will saunter back to the SPL and everything will be hunky dory.
If they survive at all it will take them years for them to become competitive to Celtic again.

We certainly do not want the SPL to be like the EPL where the normal fan is priced out of watching his team and denied earning some local pride for his town/city.

Phil talks more sense on this thread than the majority to be perfectly honest! Imo of course.