Non-counting medal

[wjemather]

I would venture that many, possibly most, winter course set ups do not meet the criterea for qualifying comps.
I also think too many courses run qualifiers when they shouldn't.
Even on a perfectly maintained course, the greens are bobblier, the fairways muddier, and the rough more uneven.
No one hits it as long in the winter as they do in the summer either.
Why anyone would want to play in a qualifier between November and February is beyond me.

Many, probably most, courses are (or will be) rated for year round golf and setup accordingly.

Cold, wet, windy, muddy, bobbly, uneven conditions can happen at any time of year. I'd hope you wouldn't advocate suspending handicapping in summer whenever conditions are less than perfect, so why do it for the entire winter?

 

[IanMcC]

Many, probably most, courses are (or will be) rated for year round golf and setup accordingly.

Cold, wet, windy, muddy, bobbly, uneven conditions can happen at any time of year. I'd hope you wouldn't advocate suspending handicapping in summer whenever conditions are less than perfect, so why do it for the entire winter?

The complete show stoppers are:

Rake and place in bunkers.
Preferred lies in entire General Area

The ones that make it awkward are:

Over 100 yards shorter than measured course.
15 holes only played.

 

[IanM]

Appendix A 2 (vi) would imply that the Club is not fulfilling its obligation in the final clause.


View attachment 46095

Genuine question. The above seems to be about the obligation to keep proper records. (As I read it)

The OP was about a club taking a view about course conditions, and when is it ok to do so.

What have I mossed? Are you saying, unless it is a qualifier, they are not keeping proper records. That seems a bit of a jump to me. One is about records, once is about the weather/mid/snow/ice/earthquakes!

 

[jim8flog]

I would venture that many, possibly most, winter course set ups do not meet the criterea for qualifying comps.
I also think too many courses run qualifiers when they shouldn't.
Even on a perfectly maintained course, the greens are bobblier, the fairways muddier, and the rough more uneven.
No one hits it as long in the winter as they do in the summer either.
Why anyone would want to play in a qualifier between November and February is beyond me.

Because I want a handicap based upon all conditions not just when a course is in 'perfect condition'.

 

[D-S]

If the whole course is frozen solid with no possibility of holding greens guarded at the front by bunkers or obstacles, with concrete bunkers and ridiculous bounces- do you still believe the course should be qualifying and competitions run as such?

 

[rulefan]

Genuine question. The above seems to be about the obligation to keep proper records. (As I read it)

The OP was about a club taking a view about course conditions, and when is it ok to do so.

What have I mossed? Are you saying, unless it is a qualifier, they are not keeping proper records. That seems a bit of a jump to me. One is about records, once is about the weather/mid/snow/ice/earthquakes!

I was targeting the requirement "to enable the accurate calculation of a player's Handicap Index" .
As WHS is designed to be an 'all year round' system it seems odd to exclude one season entirely.
No issue with days when the course is genuinely unplayable.

 

[Swango1980]

I would venture that many, possibly most, winter course set ups do not meet the criterea for qualifying comps.
I also think too many courses run qualifiers when they shouldn't.
Even on a perfectly maintained course, the greens are bobblier, the fairways muddier, and the rough more uneven.
No one hits it as long in the winter as they do in the summer either.
Why anyone would want to play in a qualifier between November and February is beyond me.

If these types of conditions would make a course unacceptable for handicapping, would a links course, on a beautiful summers day with zero wind be acceptable for handicapping? Especially if the green staff had just freshly trimmed down a lot of the rough, and pins were in nicer positions than on average.

In other words, if golfers think a course should not be used for handicapping if the weather is a bit on the bad side, and/or it is a bit muddy, would the same be true when the course is playing just as easy as it could?

P.S. I can understand the argument more when a course is frozen solid, given the whacky and unpredictable bounces you can get (albeit I've known some players to score really well in these conditions anyway, so couldn't guarantee that such rounds should be ruled out)

 

[BiMGuy]

If these types of conditions would make a course unacceptable for handicapping, would a links course, on a beautiful summers day with zero wind be acceptable for handicapping? Especially if the green staff had just freshly trimmed down a lot of the rough, and pins were in nicer positions than on average.

In other words, if golfers think a course should not be used for handicapping if the weather is a bit on the bad side, and/or it is a bit muddy, would the same be true when the course is playing just as easy as it could?

P.S. I can understand the argument more when a course is frozen solid, given the whacky and unpredictable bounces you can get (albeit I've known some players to score really well in these conditions anyway, so couldn't guarantee that such rounds should be ruled out)

Aren’t rock hard corses and those whacky unpredictable bounces the thing’s every loves about links golf?

 

[IanMcC]

If these types of conditions would make a course unacceptable for handicapping, would a links course, on a beautiful summers day with zero wind be acceptable for handicapping? Especially if the green staff had just freshly trimmed down a lot of the rough, and pins were in nicer positions than on average.

In other words, if golfers think a course should not be used for handicapping if the weather is a bit on the bad side, and/or it is a bit muddy, would the same be true when the course is playing just as easy as it could?

P.S. I can understand the argument more when a course is frozen solid, given the whacky and unpredictable bounces you can get (albeit I've known some players to score really well in these conditions anyway, so couldn't guarantee that such rounds should be ruled out)

See post #22.

 

[Swango1980]

Aren’t rock hard corses and those whacky unpredictable bounces the thing’s every loves about links golf?

Indeed. So, if someone turned up one day and the conditions were exceptionally easy, someone might argue it should not count for handicap, as they aren't reflecting "normal" conditions (As a reminder, I don't think this, it was just my counter argument to the fact that rounds should not count in winter if conditions are muddy and it is cold)

 

[IanMcC]

Because I want a handicap based upon all conditions not just when a course is in 'perfect condition'.

You see post #22 as well.

 

[IanM]

Aren’t rock hard corses and those whacky unpredictable bounces the thing’s every loves about links golf?

You're a bad person

 

[DickInShorts]

I was targeting the requirement "to enable the accurate calculation of a player's Handicap Index" .
As WHS is designed to be an 'all year round' system it seems odd to exclude one season entirely.
No issue with days when the course is genuinely unplayable.

Our course (NE Scotland) is non qualifying from 1st November until end of March. Mats on closely mown and can be used in bunkers (they are generally solid all year!) and much of the period we are on winter greens. Even on summer greens it wouldn’t qualify due to the bunker rule!
There will be many parts of the world (much of Canada) that cannot play ‘Qualifying’ golf throughout the year

 

[D-S]

Our course (NE Scotland) is non qualifying from 1st November until end of March. Mats on closely mown and can be used in bunkers (they are generally solid all year!) and much of the period we are on winter greens. Even on summer greens it wouldn’t qualify due to the bunker rule!
There will be many parts of the world (much of Canada) that cannot play ‘Qualifying’ golf throughout the year

Just remove the bunker rule and you too can have “a handicap based upon all conditions not just when a course is in 'perfect condition’.”? (except when you’re on winter greens).

 

[Deleted member 31467]

Would a course frozen solid count as exceptionally poor..?

We've changed 2 Stableford comps to NQ in the last 4 days.

I don't know if permission was sought but to try and hold meaningful handicap counting competition in the current conditions is nonsense.

More to the point why would anyone be stupid enough to enter a competition in those conditions ?

 

[Swango1980]

More to the point why would anyone be stupid enough to enter a competition in those conditions ?

Competition in beautiful conditions, competitions in horrific conditions, still can and must be only one winner in each. Some might fancy their chances in rubbish conditions

 

[D-S]

Competition in beautiful conditions, competitions in horrific conditions, still can and must be only one winner in each. Some might fancy their chances in rubbish conditions

Competition is one thing, there always has to be a winner and in frozen solid conditions it’s a bit like entering a raffle - however to make such competitions part of the record that informs the measurement of your competence at golf is totally another.
Surely frozen solid courses is one of the reasons that certain parts of the world have an ‘off season’ when it is highly likely that sub zero temperatures will prevail for extended periods.

 

[Swango1980]

Competition is one thing, there always has to be a winner and in frozen solid conditions it’s a bit like entering a raffle - however to make such competitions part of the record that informs the measurement of your competence at golf is totally another.
Surely frozen solid courses is one of the reasons that certain parts of the world have an ‘off season’ whemn it is highly likely that sub zero temperatures will prevail for extended periods.

My response you replied to was purely related to "why play competitions in these poor conditions?"

Whether these rounds count on a handicap record was a different conversation before that little part of the thread came up.

Personally, I'm happy there is no off season in relation to handicaps. It really annoys me when a player enters winter with a high handicap, and scores brilliant rounds and doesn't get a cut for 4 to 5 months. It would probably also make it impossible for a new player to even get a handicap in the first place.

If it is icy probably another issue. How often do clubs go to temp greens or tees in these conditions, or close the course due to safety? Which would often rule it out anyway as counting for handicap. If not, then the Committee need to make a decision

 

[IanMcC]

At our course we have no qualifying comps from mid October to mid March. The main reason for this is playing conditions which the greenkeeper prefers. (as stated above, preferred lies everywhere, and rake and place in bunkers.) We have Wednesday, Friday and Sunday comps. If you win or are second in any of these comps you lose 2 or 1 Stableford points for the remainder of the Winter on the weekday that you won the comp only. This seems to work well, and stops an improving player winning everything.

 

[doublebogey7]

At our course we have no qualifying comps from mid October to mid March. The main reason for this is playing conditions which the greenkeeper prefers. (as stated above, preferred lies everywhere, and rake and place in bunkers.) We have Wednesday, Friday and Sunday comps. If you win or are second in any of these comps you lose 2 or 1 Stableford points for the remainder of the Winter on the weekday that you won the comp only. This seems to work well, and stops an improving player winning everything.

But come the season they are cleaning up again.