New Rules - what are you for and against?

[jim8flog]

If it had been brought in as a RoG rather than a “Local Rule” choice CONGU would of had to accepted it.
I’m on the fence with it to be honest, I could see some positivity in it.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens when we move to the WHS.

I doubt this will be on the agenda for changes to CONGU rules for the WHS.

One of the reasons for turning it down at our club was because of all the extra work that would have been needed* to the course to bring it in for every hole and if it was not in for every hole there are loads of players that do not read the LRs any way and would just assume it was.

* The rule works fine on holes that are relatively straight and shortish par 3s.
It does not work well on holes with severe doglegs or long par 3s where the grass cut to fairway height does not start until a long distance off the tee.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I doubt this will be on the agenda for changes to CONGU rules for the WHS.

One of the reasons for turning it down at our club was because of all the extra work that would have been needed* to the course to bring it in for every hole and if it was not in for every hole there are loads of players that do not read the LRs any way and would just assume it was.

* The rule works fine on holes that are relatively straight and shortish par 3s.
It does not work well on holes with severe doglegs or long par 3s where the grass cut to fairway height does not start until a long distance off the tee.

I was under the impression the WHS covers the world and CONGU only UK, so having it allowed in qualifiers in every area but ours makes a mockery of the WHS.

 

[Orikoru]

We had a wee discussion about this today while walking around the links.

It's only days away until some fairly "interesting" changes come into play.

(1) I'm liking the fact that I will be able to tap down and fix spike marks, scrapes and imperfections on the putting surface, I think this rule has been a long time in coming and is a good positive move.

(2) I can live with putting out with the flag stick still in and we did this a few times today and we agreed that it actually probably is quicker doing this. No farting about with tending the flag, "I want it left in" - "I want it tended" - "Can you stand the other side please" it actually works well.

(3) I'm pretty sure the "drop" instead of going back to the tee will be fairly widely abused. Not convinced it's a good rule. Then again if it is designed to speed up play I guess it ultimately will do that.

(4) Only 3 minutes to look for a ball. We have all heard the argument that if the ball isn't found in that timescale then it's unlikely you are going to find it etc etc. I think the biggest problem is ettiquette in this rule, I've played numerous times when you or a member of the group sprays one offline and one of the playing partners always says "I didn't see it". I don't get this.

This 3 minute rule will still be abused as much as the current 5 minutes is at present.

(5) My biggest question and criticism is the double hit. For me that is still a penalty. You have struck your ball twice, it's two shots. We've all done it and hopefully all called it on ourselves. Can't work out why that is not still a penalty.

What "new" rules are you happy with or not so happy with?

1. Yeah, I don't think it's fair having to putt over a spike mark or unrepaired pitch mark, so I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to repair them.
2. I think it will definitely speed up play, if you're the first to the green and first to putt, you don't need to wait for someone else to come and tend the flag stick. In friendly knocks we were already doing this some of the time, so will be quite seamless to do on comp rounds as well going forward.
3. Personally I don't think I'll ever use it, since it's 2 penalty shots I don't find it very appealing. I would rather hit a provisional, find the fairway with an iron and be playing my 4th from there; as opposed to taking a drop in the rough next to the OOB markers and be playing my 4th from there. As you touch upon, it may just speed up play on the rare occasions people have gone OOB unexpectedly and not played a provisional.
4. I'm not sure what changing it from 5 to 3 will achieve. I don't think I've ever played with anyone who actually timed 5 minutes when people were looking for a ball. They just look until the person whose ball it is gives up, saying something like 'oh I think 5 mins is up anyway'. So I don't know that 3 mins will be rigidly adhered to really.
5. I'm not sure anyone in the history of golf has ever hit a double hit intentionally, plus the result of it is almost never beneficial, so my opinion is that it's not really fair to give them a penalty shot as well. So I'm happy for it not be a penalty.

Can't remember any other rule changes off the top of my head so I just replied to your ones.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

1. Yeah, I don't think it's fair having to putt over a spike mark or unrepaired pitch mark, so I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to repair them.
2. I think it will definitely speed up play, if you're the first to the green and first to putt, you don't need to wait for someone else to come and tend the flag stick. In friendly knocks we were already doing this some of the time, so will be quite seamless to do on comp rounds as well going forward.
3. Personally I don't think I'll ever use it, since it's 2 penalty shots I don't find it very appealing. I would rather hit a provisional, find the fairway with an iron and be playing my 4th from there; as opposed to taking a drop in the rough next to the OOB markers and be playing my 4th from there. As you touch upon, it may just speed up play on the rare occasions people have gone OOB unexpectedly and not played a provisional.
4. I'm not sure what changing it from 5 to 3 will achieve. I don't think I've ever played with anyone who actually timed 5 minutes when people were looking for a ball. They just look until the person whose ball it is gives up, saying something like 'oh I think 5 mins is up anyway'. So I don't know that 3 mins will be rigidly adhered to really.
5. I'm not sure anyone in the history of golf has ever hit a double hit intentionally, plus the result of it is almost never beneficial, so my opinion is that it's not really fair to give them a penalty shot as well. So I'm happy for it not be a penalty.

Can't remember any other rule changes off the top of my head so I just replied to your ones.

If you do play a course which allows the OOB rule, you don’t drop it in the rough, you drop it on the fairway, no nearer the hole, in line of were the ball went out.

 

[bernix]

I wasn’t happy with the OOB drop and the Lost ball drop and glad that Congu decided they couldn’t be used in qualifying comps

Also not a fan of the flag left in - takes a little bit of the skill away , don’t think it saves that much time at all

The rest of the rules aren’t that dramatic but will be interesting to see how the time limits are enforced

most of times there isn't much skill involved to pull the flagstick out of the hole

 

[Orikoru]

If you do play a course which allows the OOB rule, you don’t drop it in the rough, you drop it on the fairway, no nearer the hole, in line of were the ball went out.

Oh, ok, my misunderstanding of the rule then. I still don't think it would get used that much. As I say, it just saves time of walking back to the tee I suppose. I still don't know if my club is planning to allow this rule or not.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Oh, ok, my misunderstanding of the rule then. I still don't think it would get used that much. As I say, it just saves time of walking back to the tee I suppose. I still don't know if my club is planning to allow this rule or not.

We’re not adopting it either, however, it’ll be encouraged as a “club rule” for use by Societies and members playing a bounce game, worth remembering it’s the same rule covering a lost ball and again it may be useful to save going back to replay a shot and probably like most do now in a bounce game, drop a ball and add 2 shots.

 

[Orikoru]

We’re not adopting it either, however, it’ll be encouraged as a “club rule” for use by Societies and members playing a bounce game, worth remembering it’s the same rule covering a lost ball and again it may be useful to save going back to replay a shot and probably like most do now in a bounce game, drop a ball and add 2 shots.

To be honest, in my friendly rounds if we lose a ball, out of bounds or otherwise, we've always done a drop with one shot penalty (like a normal drop for anything else I guess). So maybe we should bump that up to two next year! But also we would take that drop in the rough near as possible to where lost ball would have likely been. So I dunno, we'll just have to discuss what we do from now on I suppose.

 

[duncan mackie]

I was under the impression the WHS covers the world and CONGU only UK, so having it allowed in qualifiers in every area but ours makes a mockery of the WHS.

There will be regional differences over which scores can/will count in the handicap calculation.
A huge number of those with official USGA handicaps aren't even a member of a club, let alone play in any competitions; this rule is first and foremost designed to bring some consistency as to how they score, and proceed, in such situations (currently they do lots of different things and add, or not, various penalties when doing them!).
The starting position for nearly everyone world wide will be extremely similar to where it's at at the moment regarding the cards that will count - aspirationally it's intended to get as close as practicable consistent with furthering the participation in the sport and the integrity of the handicaps held (ie it's never likely to be exactly the same everywhere!)

 

[Deleted member 16999]

There will be regional differences over which scores can/will count in the handicap calculation.
A huge number of those with official USGA handicaps aren't even a member of a club, let alone play in any competitions; this rule is first and foremost designed to bring some consistency as to how they score, and proceed, in such situations (currently they do lots of different things and add, or not, various penalties when doing them!).
The starting position for nearly everyone world wide will be extremely similar to where it's at at the moment regarding the cards that will count - aspirationally it's intended to get as close as practicable consistent with furthering the participation in the sport and the integrity of the handicaps held (ie it's never likely to be exactly the same everywhere!)

Thanks for that, what I was basing my answer on was, when the question was asked at the England Golf presentation, the answer given was that, CONGU were intending to monitor the situation over the next 12 months as both they and England Golf were unsure as to how their decision would affect the WHS.

 

[duncan mackie]

Thanks for that, what I was basing my answer on was, when the question was asked at the England Golf presentation, the answer given was that, CONGU were intending to monitor the situation over the next 12 months as both they and England Golf were unsure as to how their decision would affect the WHS.

I'm sure you see the fundamental flaw in that answer?

But just in case....as a permitted LR clubs can choose whether or not to implement it, even if CONGU permit it for Q comps; so it's pretty meaningless in the context of the WHS whether THEY choose to permit it or not! (Accepting that if they did permit it some clubs may choose to implement it)

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I'm sure you see the fundamental flaw in that answer?

But just in case....as a permitted LR clubs can choose whether or not to implement it, even if CONGU permit it for Q comps; so it's pretty meaningless in the context of the WHS whether THEY choose to permit it or not! (Accepting that if they did permit it some clubs may choose to implement it)

Hence the confusion on the night.

 

[jim8flog]

If you do play a course which allows the OOB rule, you don’t drop it in the rough, you drop it on the fairway, no nearer the hole, in line of were the ball went out.

Or nearest point of grass cut to fairway height or less. (hence my comments about additional work for greens staff , creating new areas of closely mown).

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Or nearest point of grass cut to fairway height or less. (hence my comments about additional work for greens staff , creating new areas of closely mown).

Why cut extra areas? That’s your club creating work for itself!

 

[clubchamp98]

Or nearest point of grass cut to fairway height or less. (hence my comments about additional work for greens staff , creating new areas of closely mown).

The problem with this is imo.
They could have made it a rule of golf but don’t want pros and elite ams using it, even though they are the ones least likely to use it.
When’s the last time we saw a pro oob or lose his/her ball very rarely.

What’s the official line to having different rules for them and the rest of us.?

 

[jim8flog]

The problem with this is imo.
They could have made it a rule of golf but don’t want pros and elite ams using it, even though they are the ones least likely to use it.
When’s the last time we saw a pro oob or lose his/her ball very rarely.

What’s the official line to having different rules for them and the rest of us.?

They already do it e.g. their lift clean and place is within a club length.

It is called Conditions of the Competition

When we hold county events and major junior events, such as the South of England Boys Open, the competitors are told to ignore our local rules and are given a LR sheet which the organisers have approved.

 

[HankMarvin]

Re: having the flag in.

I personally believe it is an advantage to leave the flag in, unless it is very windy or flag is leaning towards your ball for some reason.

I will definitely be happy to leave the flag in, especially in cases I would have otherwise had it tended.
I will also be making a point of putting with the flag in if I am first to putt rather than waiting for everyone... especially if someone is playing a chip or bunker shot... as soon as they have played it means I can putt. Even if they are only on the fringe or in another bunker closer to the green.

You can’t just hit the put with the flag in when you feel like it, you need to advise the players you are doing so, it’s my understanding that if you put with the flag in without telling your playing partners your intentions and you hole the put then you incur a penalty, might be wrong but this was pointed out at a rules meeting with club professionals at a meeting in Edinburgh last week

 

[Grant85]

I’m not sure about that.

I think a point was made that if you have the flag tended it has to be removed as it would currently.

But doesn’t seem sensible that you’d have to announce you are leaving the flag in. Stupid rule to enforce, especially at pro level.

 

[Grant85]

Can’t see anything about announcing your intentions.

Rule simply that there is no penalty for putting with the flag in

 

[jim8flog]

Why cut extra areas? That’s your club creating work for itself!

see post 101