Negative angle of attack with Driver

[Alex1975]

Unless I've mis-understood you Al', that would only work if the bottom point of your swing was centre stance. As I understand it, with a proper weight shift, the low point for an iron is under your left arm pit or there abouts.

If you want to be hitting on the up, the ball would need to be forward of that point?

For sure, I did not take enough care over my words. That said, you have to reach the low point before you get up on the driver. The main point was that if you set up with your sternal notch facing the ball (it being some what forward of center) it is tough to make a positive attach angle.

 

[Foxholer]

I have a very similar problem with my trackman stats so enjoying reading this. Some great tips from the_coach, many thanks.

One quick question (and sorry if this has already been covered) but when I was watching Joe Miller and spoke to him afterwards he seems to aim a fair few degrees (approx. 10 degrees) right of his target, while I appreciate he is in the extreme of the +AoA catagory if I was to take a -4ish AoA to + 2 or more would I have to factor in aiming a little right to accompany what seems like a pull on the line he is setting up on?

Remember the Hula Hoop & Pencil demo of what the swing is actually doing. Oddly, can't find a vid of it!

If the swing is descending (and in to out) then the 'straight' face is actually pointing right of the target line, whereas if the swing is ascending it is almost certainly pointing left of the target line. So aiming right will compensate for the 'pull' which actually becomes a push.

 

[the_coach]

Thanks , will let you know how it goes.

This shows how Streelman's been working on this for some time now. But also shows the possible distance gains given the same club head speeds at more like his old but slightly better -1 & a bit AoA, against just a small change in AoA only to just over +1º, distance gained & no loss in accuracy. if you look at the -AoA distance numbers with the driver to his final slightly upwards +AoA with approx the same swing speed some big overall distance gain there.

This is there for folks whatever their swing speed.

In fact in general for other folks with slower swing speeds, it's more important to have a higher launch angle to get their own optimum distance for the swing speed they get.
The easiest change to a higher launch angle is a change to at the very least a level AoA through impact but preferably a +AoA. (for most this will mean a slight different way of thinking to how they start transition so they can lose the over steep out to in swing path which gives no chance of having an upward +AoA, & change to have a ways shallower in to out path instead, despite what folks think not over difficult to do with the right understanding of what they are trying to achieve.)

Simply upping the loft on a driver face alone isn't going to achieve that, in fact it could be even more detrimental as it just adds & ups the spin rate & the harder it's hit the higher not further it goes.


[video=youtube_share;ac8X3cijwAU]http://youtu.be/ac8X3cijwAU[/video]

 

[Foxholer]

Simply upping the loft on a driver face alone isn't going to achieve that, in fact it could be even more detrimental as it just adds & ups the spin rate & the harder it's hit the higher not further it goes.

This to me is the biggest danger!

 

[the_coach]

Remember the Hula Hoop & Pencil demo of what the swing is actually doing. Oddly, can't find a vid of it!

If the swing is descending (and in to out) then the 'straight' face is actually pointing right of the target line, whereas if the swing is ascending it is almost certainly pointing left of the target line. So aiming right will compensate for the 'pull' which actually becomes a push.

[video=youtube_share;_sIQ-7DJJbU]http://youtu.be/_sIQ-7DJJbU[/video]

 

[Swinger]

I'm not ignoring the above posts, a little more than the light night time read I was expecting! I'll be having a good read of this tomorrow.
I'll have to get another swing video up as I do love a bit of constructive criticism!

 

[the_coach]

I'm not ignoring the above posts, a little more than the light night time read I was expecting! I'll be having a good read of this tomorrow.
I'll have to get another swing video up as I do love a bit of constructive criticism!

No problem. It was a pertinent question, to answer to your question with the full reasons behind why the difference is there in the aim points with a downwards AoA versus an upwards AoA , it's a ways more involved to explain exactly why you'd need to aim slightly more to the right, as I think you'd expected anyways, if you're swinging upwards at +2º to hit the same target direction as you would aimed more square with a downwards -4 AoA.

 

[richart]

I'll have to get another swing video up as I do love a bit of constructive criticism!

You swing like a big girls blouse.


Oops just seen the word 'constructive'. You will swing better wearing a big girls blouse ?

 

[chrisd]

There is a lot of really interesting stuff on this thread and The Coach, Trackman Maestro, and others, have posted some really great stuff that a good, slow read/watch is going to be invaluable. Trackman certainly has dispelled many myths, particularly recent ones of golf tuition and shows what really happens through the golf swing

Thanks guys - one really interesting thread!

 

[Foxholer]

There is a lot of really interesting stuff on this thread and The Coach, Trackman Maestro, and others, have posted some really great stuff that a good, slow read/watch is going to be invaluable. Trackman certainly has dispelled many myths, particularly recent ones of golf tuition and shows what really happens through the golf swing

Thanks guys - one really interesting thread!

I believe there's actually more 'enlightenment' to come! Not so much in the way that Trackman finally proved what Cochrane and Stobbs observed and published in 1968 - but seemed to have been pretty much ignored by US coaches who dominated/swamped the teaching area (the 'not invented here' issue?).

Trackman can detect what is happening to the clubface and what subsequently happens to the ball, but what actually happens at the 'Moment of Truth' is still something of a mystery to it. That's where the ultra-high speed cameras, like the GC2, come into their own.

For example, even though impact only lasts something like 4 thousandths of a second, the clubhead face angle changes by several degrees during that time. That's equivalent of 2 rotations a second, with the face in contact with the ball - which is doing really strange things in that period too! And it wouldn't take much for those numbers to be vastly under-stated. Just like the rest of Physics, each development is a continual refinement with occasional 'quantum leaps' of understanding.

Oops! Got a bit carried away with a combo of my 'pet subjects' there!

 

[the_coach]

Figures to look at, at a swing speed nearer an amateurs swing (same will be true for slower swing speeds than this too)

But along with all the other information now out there, proves yet again how folks would be a great ways better off with even a level AoA but preferably an upward +AoA with a driver.
Difficult to understand anyone continuing to think this is all not true still.

[video=youtube_share;uE8AVG8Bl2s]http://youtu.be/uE8AVG8Bl2s[/video]

 

[sev112]

I believe there's actually more 'enlightenment' to come! Not so much in the way that Trackman finally proved what Cochrane and Stobbs observed and published in 1968 - but seemed to have been pretty much ignored by US coaches who dominated/swamped the teaching area (the 'not invented here' issue?).

Trackman can detect what is happening to the clubface and what subsequently happens to the ball, but what actually happens at the 'Moment of Truth' is still something of a mystery to it. That's where the ultra-high speed cameras, like the GC2, come into their own.

For example, even though impact only lasts something like 4 thousandths of a second, the clubhead face angle changes by several degrees during that time. That's equivalent of 2 rotations a second, with the face in contact with the ball - which is doing really strange things in that period too! And it wouldn't take much for those numbers to be vastly under-stated. Just like the rest of Physics, each development is a continual refinement with occasional 'quantum leaps' of understanding.

Oops! Got a bit carried away with a combo of my 'pet subjects' there!

You are totally right, and I got hugely flamed on here a couple of years back for saying the same, from the brigade who believe that club-ball contact was effectively instantaneous.

 

[sev112]

On this general issue, I was once coached (when I had a huge outside inside downwards approach to the ball) to aim to hit the ball off at 11 o' clock (assuming straight is 9) whilst trying to change NOTHING in my swing
Surprising what the body can do to achieve that.
For me it was a resounding success and I found a completely different feeling of club-ball contact. Plus a load of extra distance .
Of course the ball doesn't go off at 11 o'clock (apart from the odd shank/thin)

 

[Swinger]

Lot of information to take in here but think I'm getting my head round it!! Many thanks for the info and the videos here, I've learned a lot. Will take a trip down the range soon!

Can't believe how much distance I'm losing!!

 

[Region3]

Bet ya, you wished you'd never asked now!! :rofl:

There will be a lot of golfers in the south that wished he hadn't if he finds another 50yds!!

 

[MashieNiblick]

There will be a lot of golfers in the south that wished he hadn't if he finds another 50yds!!

Not to mention a certain Signor Quiros