Naming a provisional ball

[bobmac]

I was supporting you as well

Flipping heck, with the drugs I'm on I can't remember that far back, I can barely remember what I had for breakfast.

To all those who have said they agree with me, thank you.

 

[Swango1980]

I said done, not out.
Two different words, two different meanings.
Important to know the difference, especially given the topic of the conversation where words used are important.

And as far as opinions are concerned, I'm entitled to one and unless I am breaking the rules of the forum, I will continue to express mine, with or without your permission.

Never said you needed my permission, nor that you were breaking rules or that I would dream of reporting you. It was simply my opinion that I felt you had finished with giving your opinion, which I was good with.

But, apologies I got it wrong, as "I'm done" clearly means something very different to "I'm out". I can see why you want the rules to be absolute on the player saying the word "provisional", when your use of words in the English language are wishy washy to many trying to interpret them. That being said, for pretty much every other golfer I've played with, it's never been an issue, and so I expect the rule is fine the way it is. And your suggestion is something that would never be considered, and mocked if it was for resulting in stupid penalties. My opinion of course.

I've even played with LincolnShep, who has said "I'm proceeding under Rule 18.3". He does this a lot . I never once thought "he shouldn't really be allowed to do that, I wish I could give him a penalty for it"

 

[bobmac]

Never said you needed my permission, nor that you were breaking rules or that I would dream of reporting you. It was simply my opinion that I felt you had finished with giving your opinion, which I was good with.

But, apologies I got it wrong, as "I'm done" clearly means something very different to "I'm out". I can see why you want the rules to be absolute on the player saying the word "provisional", when your use of words in the English language are wishy washy to many trying to interpret them. That being said, for pretty much every other golfer I've played with, it's never been an issue, and so I expect the rule is fine the way it is. And your suggestion is something that would never be considered, and mocked if it was for resulting in stupid penalties. My opinion of course.

I've even played with LincolnShep, who has said "I'm proceeding under Rule 18.3". He does this a lot . I never once thought "he shouldn't really be allowed to do that, I wish I could give him a penalty for it"

Thank you.
If people want to say I'm proceeding under Rule 18.3, that's fine but I'm sure there would be people who wouldn't have a clue what he was talking about.
Serious question...
Was there a time in the last 50 years where the rule stated the word 'provisional' had to be used.
I only ask as I remember a guy playing in the Open at St. Andrews who at the 17th, hit his ball right. He said something under his breath in Japanese (I think) and his fellow competitor didn't understand what he said. It was a mess

 

[Slab]

Thank you.
If people want to say I'm proceeding under Rule 18.3, that's fine but I'm sure there would be people who wouldn't have a clue what he was talking about.
Serious question...
Was there a time in the last 50 years where the rule stated the word 'provisional' had to be used.
I only ask as I remember a guy playing in the Open at St. Andrews who at the 17th, hit his ball right. He said something under his breath in Japanese (I think) and his fellow competitor didn't understand what he said. It was a mess

I was actually thinking about this last night on this topic (not for tour players) but because I regularly play with ppl from several diff countries and shouts of provisoire, voorlopig or even zvenguva etc maybe wouldn’t be a surprise for me to hear
Actually playing with a bloke in tomorrows drawn comp and don't know if english is a first or second language for him

 

[doublebogey7]

Yes, playing a provisional does save time, but you would also save time by abandoning a first ball that may require a search and playing a second immediately under stroke and distance. As such, "saving time" is not a clear indication that a provisional ball is being played.

Here I disagree, as the previous poster says the justification for rule 18.3 is "to save time", so the very act of playing a provisional ball saves time. A player may abandon their ball whether they put another or a provisional ball in play. So playing a provisional is the only act of the two available that will save time as described in the RoG.

 

[Swango1980]

Here I disagree, as the previous poster says the justification for rule 18.3 is "to save time", so the very act of playing a provisional ball saves time. A player may abandon their ball whether they put another or a provisional ball in play. So playing a provisional is the only act of the two available that will save time as described in the RoG.

How is playing a provisional ball the only available option that will save time, when the other option to immediately play stroke and distance also saves time?

 

[Swango1980]

Thank you.
If people want to say I'm proceeding under Rule 18.3, that's fine but I'm sure there would be people who wouldn't have a clue what he was talking about.
Serious question...
Was there a time in the last 50 years where the rule stated the word 'provisional' had to be used.
I only ask as I remember a guy playing in the Open at St. Andrews who at the 17th, hit his ball right. He said something under his breath in Japanese (I think) and his fellow competitor didn't understand what he said. It was a mess

I don'f know the full history of the rules, so perhaps someone else can come in on that one.

Do you suggest Japanese people should say the word "Provisional" only, or are they allowed to say it in their own language? Do you suggest it depends on the country you are playing in (even if the whole group is Japanese but playing in England). I mean, if people are going to speak in different languages during a round of golf, communication might be tricky all round. But, between them, I'm sure they can figure something out?

 

[wjemather]

Here I disagree, as the previous poster says the justification for rule 18.3 is "to save time", so the very act of playing a provisional ball saves time. A player may abandon their ball whether they put another or a provisional ball in play. So playing a provisional is the only act of the two available that will save time as described in the RoG.

Playing the second ball under stroke and distance is more time saving than playing a provisional. It eliminates up to 3 minutes searching for the original ball; and also eliminates the potential time spent walking back from that area if stroke and distance is the chosen or only relief option.
That the rules mention that a provisional may be played to save time is irrelevant, as saving time is not exclusive to playing a provisional.

 

[bobmac]

I don'f know the full history of the rules, so perhaps someone else can come in on that one.

Do you suggest Japanese people should say the word "Provisional" only, or are they allowed to say it in their own language? Do you suggest it depends on the country you are playing in (even if the whole group is Japanese but playing in England). I mean, if people are going to speak in different languages during a round of golf, communication might be tricky all round. But, between them, I'm sure they can figure something out?

I'm not suggesting anything, I just asked a simple question

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I can neither read a player’s mind when he is about to hit a second ball nor am I interested in making guesses or assumptions about what he might be doing, nor am I going to be stating what he is doing for him - and so I ask what he is doing. And if he still uses ambiguous words or phrases I will deliberately ask if he is putting a new ball in play or playing a provisional. If he says it’s a provisional I’ll usually simply say ‘well just say it’s a provisional’ it’s not difficult or confusing.

And with that I too am out.

 

[bobmac]

If he says it’s a provisional I’ll usually simply say ‘well just say it’s a provisional’ it’s not difficult or confusing.

And with that I too am out.

Thank you.
Clear, precise, unambiguous

 

[Crow]

I obviously didn't word the question very well.

Have any of you had to deal with a situation where the validity of a provisional ball was called into question by another player after the finding of the first ball?

Situation - Player A hits first ball, then says something to Player B and hits another.
They get to where the first ball went and find it.
Player A then hits first ball, but Player B doesn't think that Player A correctly expressed that they were playing a provisional ball and calls for a ruling.

As none of the rules people answered this post, I assume that none of them have ever had the situation arise.

That says to me that no players ever pay attention to rule 18.3 and just proceed however Player A wishes. I think it's pretty clear by the number of replies that we've had on this thread that correct wording/phraseology isn't always used yet nobody gives a monkeys.

So as has already been suggested, perhaps the rule should be changed so that second balls are automatically provisionals and to make the requirement of the player to state if the ball is not a provisional.

 

[rulie]

As none of the rules people answered this post, I assume that none of them have ever had the situation arise.

That says to me that no players ever pay attention to rule 18.3 and just proceed however Player A wishes. I think it's pretty clear by the number of replies that we've had on this thread that correct wording/phraseology isn't always used yet nobody gives a monkeys.

So as has already been suggested, perhaps the rule should be changed so that second balls are automatically provisionals and to make the requirement of the player to state if the ball is not a provisional.

That has been proposed to the ruling bodies, discussed and concluded not to change from the current Rule.
If a referee is present in such a situation as has been discussed, and is not certain of the player's intent, he or she will always ask before the ball is played.
If a referee has to sort it out later, ie, was not present, then they will ask the players what was said and make a decision based on the Rules and clarifications. Some players will be ok with the outcome, others will not.

 

[rosecott]

Don't the USGA / R&A both say under 18.3 a provisional ball can be played "to save time"? Has it any other use?
GM def say the purpose of a provisional is to save time https://www.golfmonthly.com/videos/rules/golf-rules-explained-provisional-ball

I think the element of saving time relates to the possibility of not finding the original and having to walk back to the tee to put another ball into play.

 

[Crow]

If a referee has to sort it out later, ie, was not present, then they will ask the players what was said and make a decision based on the Rules and clarifications. Some players will be ok with the outcome, others will not.

I ask again, are you aware of such a scenario ever being raised by the players?

 

[rulefan]

I ask again, are you aware of such a scenario ever being raised by the players?

Yes. In a Yorkshire Team Championship on the 17th at Ganton.

 

[Colin L]

Here I disagree, as the previous poster says the justification for rule 18.3 is "to save time", so the very act of playing a provisional ball saves time. A player may abandon their ball whether they put another or a provisional ball in play. So playing a provisional is the only act of the two available that will save time as described in the RoG.

Eh?

 

[doublebogey7]

For those that oppose the rule in its current state, its prety simple you know to ask the player to confirm their intentions if you are unsure.

The rules are not written in order not to trip players up but to give them the fairest opportunity to play the game within those rules. Why would anyone wish to change that.

 

[Crow]

Yes. In a Yorkshire Team Championship on the 17th at Ganton.

Thank you.
I imagine that a claim is more likely to happen in team or matchplay where the action of Player A immediately impacts the result for Player B.

Are you aware of it ever being raised in an individual competition?

 

[jim8flog]

No I was merely saying to wjemather I was done talking to him. If he wanted to go round and round in circles with a bit of name calling, then fine but I've said my piece I'm done talking to him as there's nothing much more to say, I'm done.


At last, someone else see my simple, straightforward and clear point of view which is not open to misinterpretation.
Thank you Cliveb for saving my sanity.

Joke!!