My Swing Speed Journey

[mrio]

The speed I'm posting with the sticks is measured by the blue sports sensors radar (superspeed used to sell these before the prgr)

It seems that the blue radar measures a few mph more than the PRGR. However as you said, the most important thing is to measure it in a consistent way!

I was interested in the PRGR because thats what I used though

Good luck with your goal btw! What speed did you have before the speed training?

 

[Springveldt]

It seems that the blue radar measures a few mph more than the PRGR. However as you said, the most important thing is to measure it in a consistent way!

I was interested in the PRGR because thats what I used though

Good luck with your goal btw! What speed did you have before the speed training?

I was probably mid 90's when I started my first session back in 2019, ball speed with driver was just over 142mph on great hits (on GC2). After doing protocol 1 back then (and actually stuck to it for 3 months) my best ball speed on GC2 was 152mph.

Now you might think I should be much faster if my first session was nearly 6 years ago but after that initial 3 months I didn't actually do any speed training again till 2022 as I was happy with the gain then covid hit and I didn't see the point. Every year since then I basically get the sticks out at the start of the golf season, do the sessions intermittently for 2 or 3 months, get my speed back up to high 120's/low 130's with the green stick and then don't continue as I see that increase on the course.

Last year I put a bit more effort in, I did 19 sessions that I tracked from Feb through to May (if you stick to what you are meant to do that should be 36 sessions for 3 months) but with the garbage weather last year with all the rain I had to do some on the driveway and path and my speeds were massively down on those efforts which made me pack it in.

Even with the very irregular and short training efforts I'm faster now than I was in 2019, I can see ball speeds of 157mph on Trackman when I catch one flush when going full out and good hits when I'm playing a course will be around 149-152mph ball speeds which were the flat out speeds back then. I'm also older (late 40's now), fatter and stiffer than I was back then.

I know to hit my goals I will need to commit to the training properly, 3 times a week and for months on end but I usually end up giving in when I see 3 weeks in a row of the same speeds or even declining speeds now and again. Hopefully this year I've got the mental strength to stick at it but we will see. I've started earlier this year than I ever have before and I'm faster at this point than usual but the speeds I'm seeing just now are the plateau that I always end up giving in at as I can never seem to break through to that next step of getting the green above 131, blue to or above 127 and red to or above 123 with consistency rather than the odd swing which I interpret as a misread.

 

[VVega]

Thought it might be insightful to survey the local “speedsters” on their current PB clubhead speed (from Trackman / Foresight) vs deadlift max (x of their body weight) or state if you are not bothered with weights

As an example, I’m currently: 113mph vs 1.85x.

 

[Golf is fun]

Thought it might be insightful to survey the local “speedsters” on their current PB clubhead speed (from Trackman / Foresight) vs deadlift max (x of their body weight) or state if you are not bothered with weights

As an example, I’m currently: 113mph vs 1.85x.

Do you have a hypothesis on how these 2 numbers are related?

 

[Springveldt]

Thought it might be insightful to survey the local “speedsters” on their current PB clubhead speed (from Trackman / Foresight) vs deadlift max (x of their body weight) or state if you are not bothered with weights

As an example, I’m currently: 113mph vs 1.85x.

No idea what my deadlift is now, haven’t been in a gym since covid. Old and fat I’d probably struggle with 160kg now. When I loved working out in my 20’s my PB was 230kg for 5 as I used to train 5x5 at around 100kg body weight.

I’ve got a video of me from probably 6 years ago now (just checked it’s actually 9 years ) doing 182.5kg for 5 and 200kg for a single after I had only been back in the gym for 2 months after years off.

Strength isn’t my issue, it’s explosiveness. I always preferred lifting heavy and low reps to light and high reps. I’ve never been explosive or flexible.

 

[VVega]

Do you have a hypothesis on how these 2 numbers are related?

According to ChatGPT:

Studies suggest that golfers with 2.0-2.5x bodyweight deadlifts tend to generate higher clubhead speeds.

 

[Golf is fun]

According to ChatGPT:

I'd suspect vertical jump/broad jump (if you're not fat), snatch/C&J, grip force and bench press would all be more correlated.

The deadlift may correlate because it indirectly measures grip strength.

 

[VVega]

The deadlift may correlate because it indirectly measures grip strength.

What about the glutes? That’s the main power engine…

ChatGPT:

Ground Force Production → Clubhead Speed

• The deadlift develops posterior chain strength (glutes, hamstrings, lower back), which is crucial for generating force from the ground.
• Golfers with stronger ground reaction forces (GRF) can transfer more power up through the kinetic chain, leading to higher clubhead speeds.

 

[Golf is fun]

What about the glutes? That’s the main power engine…

ChatGPT:

The golf swing is a complex movement, you can't really simplify it down to 1 muscle.

That said, the problem with deadlifts is that you can take 5 seconds to grind out a deadlift, so you're applying a big force, but over a long time, so the power requirement is not necessarily that high. Assuming you don't grind out your max deadlift too slowly, you can also get away with a lot, like the hips shooting up, and the back rounding, so if you were going to pick a strength exercise I'd choose squats over deadlifts, just because you can't cheat them so much.

On a slight tangent but I think still interesting is that this has been studied a bit and in a study of studies the thing that surprises most people is that flexibility has a really weak correlation to speed, strength and power is much more important.

The caveat to all this is that it requires good technique in the golf swing. I am an anecdotal example of that in that I came from a sport that had high power requirements so had decent gym numbers 3x BW deadlift, 2.5xBW squat, 1.9xBW C&J, but unfortunately my fastest speed on trackman is 107mph as opposed to the 120mph+ that chat GPT would assign me because my technique is poor.

 

[mrio]

The golf swing is a complex movement, you can't really simplify it down to 1 muscle.

That said, the problem with deadlifts is that you can take 5 seconds to grind out a deadlift, so you're applying a big force, but over a long time, so the power requirement is not necessarily that high.

This! The thing is that you need to differenciate between strength and rate of force development. This is also a researched topic for improving the vertical jump in basket. Even if you can squat 2xBW this does not mean that you can develop that strength with a time constraint of less than 0.3 seconds, you need to take a lot more factors into consideration. However the potential is there.

For that reason, it is usually reported a stronger correlation between vertical jump (or even sprinting speed) with Club head speed than with squat, they both require a good rate of force development. (Also regarding other posts, I won't use ChatGPT for that because the values are just invented, they are logic and reasonable, as everything with ChatGPT, but they have no foundation whatsoever)

In my case, I can squat 1xBW and I have measure 120 mph in trackman with my absolute best. I'm 33 and I trained for it, I was 106 mph when I played my best in my younger days.

I was probably mid 90's when I started my first session back in 2019, ball speed with driver was just over 142mph on great hits (on GC2). After doing protocol 1 back then (and actually stuck to it for 3 months) my best ball speed on GC2 was 152mph.

Now you might think I should be much faster if my first session was nearly 6 years ago... []

On the contrary, I think that is a massive improvement, and I also think that the game change A LOT with 10 mph more. Congrats and keep improving man!

 

[Springveldt]

The golf swing is a complex movement, you can't really simplify it down to 1 muscle.

That said, the problem with deadlifts is that you can take 5 seconds to grind out a deadlift, so you're applying a big force, but over a long time, so the power requirement is not necessarily that high. Assuming you don't grind out your max deadlift too slowly, you can also get away with a lot, like the hips shooting up, and the back rounding, so if you were going to pick a strength exercise I'd choose squats over deadlifts, just because you can't cheat them so much.

On a slight tangent but I think still interesting is that this has been studied a bit and in a study of studies the thing that surprises most people is that flexibility has a really weak correlation to speed, strength and power is much more important.

The caveat to all this is that it requires good technique in the golf swing. I am an anecdotal example of that in that I came from a sport that had high power requirements so had decent gym numbers 3x BW deadlift, 2.5xBW squat, 1.9xBW C&J, but unfortunately my fastest speed on trackman is 107mph as opposed to the 120mph+ that chat GPT would assign me because my technique is poor.

My man, those aren't decent gym numbers, those are elite. I remember years ago looking at powerlifting meets and 3x BW deadlift for the natural events was right at the top.

 

[VVega]

Great replies, I was just trying to get some reference numbers in my post but happy to have a broader discussion

The golf swing is a complex movement, you can't really simplify it down to 1 muscle.

Sure it’s oversimplified, but if we were to pick one muscle it’d be it. Tiger used to talk about getting “glutes firing”…

That said, the problem with deadlifts is that you can take 5 seconds to grind out a deadlift, so you're applying a big force, but over a long time, so the power requirement is not necessarily that high. Assuming you don't grind out your max deadlift too slowly, you can also get away with a lot, like the hips shooting up

Isn’t it actually a good thing?
Here is a few more CGPT points:

Deadlifts reinforce a strong hip hinge, which is fundamental to an efficient golf swing.

Heavier deadlifts improve rate of force development (RFD), helping golfers apply force quickly during the downswing.

Max deadlift training improves fast-twitch muscle recruitment, leading to better acceleration in the golf swing.

On a slight tangent but I think still interesting is that this has been studied a bit and in a study of studies the thing that surprises most people is that flexibility has a really weak correlation to speed, strength and power is much more important.

Can you link the study the diagram is from? Looking at the diagram it’s based on very weak (statistically) studies (very low participants numbers), so I’d be sceptical of their results.

 

[VVega]

My man, those aren't decent gym numbers, those are elite. I remember years ago looking at powerlifting meets and 3x BW deadlift for the natural events was right at the top.

Indeed, I think the world record is at about 5x?

 

[Springveldt]

Indeed, I think the world record is at about 5x?

Pretty sure those guys are chemically assisted.

 

[VVega]

I am an anecdotal example of that in that I came from a sport that had high power requirements so had decent gym numbers 3x BW deadlift, 2.5xBW squat, 1.9xBW C&J, but unfortunately my fastest speed on trackman is 107mph as opposed to the 120mph+ that chat GPT would assign me because my technique is poor.

I’d bet it’s much easier to get you to 120+ after a few technique-based sessions than someone who starts from no strength point.

On another hand, as the TPI guys talk about, it’s dangerous to try to get to high speed without building up “the chassis” first.

Also, anecdotally, in the most recent RS video, Rahm literally says that the best way for amateurs to increase their speed is to go to the gym

Disclaimer: of course, everything is more complicated etc etc etc. Speed training has its place etc etc Vertical jump as a measure is more closely correlated to clubhead speed (according to TPI) etc etc

Having said that it does look like deadlift is one common exercise that all experts talk about from well-being and healthy ageing to professional athletes, hence my original question/poll

 

[Golf is fun]

I'm replying to a few different people and points at once, so forgive me for not quoting anyone.

It's a meta study of existing studies, it won't be perfect, but I think as a generalisation it's useful - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32981467/

My comment about hips shooting up in deadlifts was more around how you can still make a max effort lift with terrible form (this is pretty normal as your max lift will be at the limit of your weakest link) so you may not even be transferring force from the glutes, you could be doing a strange version of a stiff legged deadlift or RDL (if you rebend the knees) and so work the back and hamstring more, all of which is a long winded way of saying you can cut some parts of the chain out whereas with a squat there are less hiding places and you have to effectively transfer from ground through legs and core or you get buried. If you can deadlift at high velocity with max loads without folding like an accordion or more crudely but realistically looking like a dog pooping then yes they'll have great carry over. That said I think the average golfer is generally not that conditioned from a gym perspective, so almost gaining any strength will be of benefit, and it's good for general quality of life too.

Perspective is a funny thing, I won an English championship in my sport, but you always want to do better, to me I see all the people who win Europeans, Worlds, Commonwealth and Olympics as elite. I was going to look at doing strongman after I "retired" but realistically you have to be 140kg just to get in the door, that's not really achievable naturally, and so not for me. Plus really you want to be 6'6+, which I am not! I did get to train with a lot of awesome people though, international rugby players, NFL players, Olympians, I don't think I'd change any of it really, but taking up golf instead at a young age does sound like it would have been nice.

 

[VVega]

I won an English championship in my sport

Amazing, do share which sport it was

 

[Golf is fun]

Amazing, do share which sport it was

You probably won't be too surprised that it was Weightlifting, hence why I am fascinated with this kind of discussion. I've a lot to learn about golf, but I like to think I am fairly knowledgeable with strength and conditioning.

 

[VVega]

You probably won't be too surprised that it was Weightlifting, hence why I am fascinated with this kind of discussion. I've a lot to learn about golf, but I like to think I am fairly knowledgeable with strength and conditioning.

Great to have an expert on here!

Sorry if I missed it, but how long have you been playing /what is your handicap? I’d expect starting from your base you’d be easily getting to at least 115mph.

 

[Springveldt]

You probably won't be too surprised that it was Weightlifting, hence why I am fascinated with this kind of discussion. I've a lot to learn about golf, but I like to think I am fairly knowledgeable with strength and conditioning.

I guessed that when you gave a clean and jerk number, you don't see many recreational lifters doing that.