chrisd
Major Champion
I couldn't decide if they were 2 players in opposition to each other or whether both were opponents of the poster but in the question as asked each had individual rulings anyway
Mis- identified ball
- Thread starter jim8flog
- Start date
I couldn't decide if they were 2 players in opposition to each other or whether both were opponents of the poster but in the question as asked each had individual rulings anyway
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
They were opponents to each other.
I was asked for a ruling by the Comp organiser. Which was given as match result to stand as the query had come up after the match had finished and the query was not raised at the time it happened or before teeing off on the next tee.
I just had a further thought this morning about the scenario and wanted to know for future reference.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
We weren't very happy. As it happens we weren't playing match play, but we were playing in a company competition with a very small field and a very prestigious company prize at stake - so in effect we were playing them...
And that'd be just about the time I'd concede the match & head to the bar
(although anything can happen, I'd like to think I'd have some idea if my ball was middle of the fairway or first cut)
We were playing Royal Birkdale and neither pair knew the line off the tee other than a marker post (think it was the 9th) and with the wind we didn't know where our two tee shots had ended up - so it wasn't obvious to us which ball was which. We mistakenly assumed by the way the other pair were standing close to a ball that they had identified that ball as theirs - and as said - I gave the ball that I hit only a cursory glance to check....
We were scoring rubbish so we shrugged and just got on with it...we were more miffed as I hit a cracking 2nd shot and it was the first time we'd hit a green in regulation the whole round and were congratulating each other when we got the call
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Colin L
Tour Winner
I missed the first line of the Jim's post and took this to be a singles match. If anyone is by chance interested in the outcome in singles, now you know. 
But to the four ball. A is disqualified from the hole for playing a wrong ball. B's ball is , sorry to say, lost and he has to proceed, if at all, under stroke and distance. Rule 18.2a(10 is unqualified - if your ball isn't found in 3 minutes of searching it is lost. No exceptions .
C and D are unaffected.
My recollection is that the term wrong information doesn't appear in the current Rules. In any case, innocently mistaking your opponent's ball and saying it is yours does not breach any rule I can think of. Rule 3.1d Responsibility of player and opponent is about informing your opponent about your score.
It does sound hard on B but he could have checked the ball his opponent was claiming as his own.
But to the four ball. A is disqualified from the hole for playing a wrong ball. B's ball is , sorry to say, lost and he has to proceed, if at all, under stroke and distance. Rule 18.2a(10 is unqualified - if your ball isn't found in 3 minutes of searching it is lost. No exceptions .
C and D are unaffected.
My recollection is that the term wrong information doesn't appear in the current Rules. In any case, innocently mistaking your opponent's ball and saying it is yours does not breach any rule I can think of. Rule 3.1d Responsibility of player and opponent is about informing your opponent about your score.
It does sound hard on B but he could have checked the ball his opponent was claiming as his own.
YandaB
Newbie
But under the rule that Jim8fllog originally posted there is another part (this is the end of 6.3c):I missed the first line of the Jim's post and took this to be a singles match. If anyone is by chance interested in the outcome in singles, now you know.
But to the four ball. A is disqualified from the hole for playing a wrong ball. B's ball is , sorry to say, lost and he has to proceed, if at all, under stroke and distance. Rule 18.2a(10 is unqualified - if your ball isn't found in 3 minutes of searching it is lost. No exceptions .
C and D are unaffected.
My recollection is that the term wrong information doesn't appear in the current Rules. In any case, innocently mistaking your opponent's ball and saying it is yours does not breach any rule I can think of. Rule 3.1d Responsibility of player and opponent is about informing your opponent about your score.
It does sound hard on B but he could have checked the ball his opponent was claiming as his own.
(2) What to Do When Player’s Ball Was Played by Another Player as Wrong Ball. If it is known or virtually certain that the player’s ball was played by another player as a wrong ball, the player must replace the original ball or another ball on the original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2).
This applies whether or not the original ball has been found.
Which would indicate to me (rightly or wrongly) that once the fact is established then it would be known for certain that the ball was played by another player this is then allowed. What is less obvious is how long the time can be from not finding it (even though it doesn't need to be) and estalishing this fact. The only "timing" in play is the 3 minutes search or the start of the next hole, finding out the fact on the green is before the start of the next hole so seems to be the relevant "timing" to me. I accept that I am not an expert but come here to be educated by those that are and can steer me towards the right way of thinking - thank you
Foxholer
Blackballed
To give them the benefit of doubt, they were possibly simply 'showing' where your ball was and your assumption - and perhaps quick shot - was 'the cause'. Or am I being too generous?It effectively happened to me in a competition some years ago. Foursomes. Blind tee shot. Both tee shots up and over. Our opponents walked to and stood by a ball at the side of the fairway in the first cut rough - we went to the other ball in the middle of the fairway. Us to play first. I looked and at a glance it looked like ours - I hit it onto the green. They looked across from where they were standing by the ball and said 'you've just hit our ball'.
My scenario is just stretching a scenario to see if the ruling given still seemed fair. With my stretch scenario it didn't
Foxholer
Blackballed
Likely need clarification about timing, but I would think that only applies while the players are in the area of the ball wrongly played. as opposed to what happened in this instance - where that fact was found out when the group arrived on the green.But under the rule that Jim8fllog originally posted there is another part (this is the end of 6.3c):
(2) What to Do When Player’s Ball Was Played by Another Player as Wrong Ball. If it is known or virtually certain that the player’s ball was played by another player as a wrong ball, the player must replace the original ball or another ball on the original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2).This applies whether or not the original ball has been found.
Which would indicate to me (rightly or wrongly) that once the fact is established then it would be known for certain that the ball was played by another player this is then allowed. What is less obvious is how long the time can be from not finding it (even though it doesn't need to be) and estalishing this fact. The only "timing" in play is the 3 minutes search or the start of the next hole, finding out the fact on the green is before the start of the next hole so seems to be the relevant "timing" to me. I accept that I am not an expert but come here to be educated by those that are and can steer me towards the right way of thinking - thank you
rulie
Head Pro
See the Interpretation on the definition of "Known or Virtually Certain" below.
It's clear that "known or virtually certain" had to be established when the three minute search time expired, not later.
Known or Virtually Certain/3 – Player Unaware Ball Played by Another Player
It must be known or virtually certain that a player’s ball has been played by another player as a wrong ball to treat it as being moved.
For example, in stroke play, Player A and Player B hit their tee shots into the same general location. Player A finds a ball and plays it. Player B goes forward to look for his or her ball and cannot find it. After three minutes, Player B starts back to the tee to play another ball. On the way, Player B finds Player A’s ball and knows then that Player A has played his or her ball in error.
Player A gets the general penalty for playing a wrong ball and must then play his or her own ball (Rule 6.3c). Player A’s ball was not lost even though both players searched for more than three minutes because Player A did not start searching for his or her ball; the searching was for Player B’s ball. Regarding Player B’s ball, Player B’s original ball was lost and he or she must put another ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 18.2b), because it was not known or virtually certain when the three-minute search time expired that the ball had been played by another player.
Colin L
Tour Winner
But under the rule that Jim8fllog originally posted there is another part (this is the end of 6.3c):
(2) What to Do When Player’s Ball Was Played by Another Player as Wrong Ball. If it is known or virtually certain that the player’s ball was played by another player as a wrong ball, the player must replace the original ball or another ball on the original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2).This applies whether or not the original ball has been found.
Which would indicate to me (rightly or wrongly) that once the fact is established then it would be known for certain that the ball was played by another player this is then allowed. What is less obvious is how long the time can be from not finding it (even though it doesn't need to be) and estalishing this fact. The only "timing" in play is the 3 minutes search or the start of the next hole, finding out the fact on the green is before the start of the next hole so seems to be the relevant "timing" to me. I accept that I am not an expert but come here to be educated by those that are and can steer me towards the right way of thinking - thank you
Player B's ball was lost before A played it.
Foxholer
Blackballed
From the original description of events, that's absolutely clear - if unfortunate for 'B'!
So the subsequent discovery that A played a Wrong Ball simply puts him/her out of the hole as well.
Pretty simple really!
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Methinks you are - but of course I will never know. They stood by our ball, and we stood by theirs, for some time before I hit theirs...
Still my own fault...
cliveb
Head Pro
My understanding of "lost ball" is that a ball which is found within 3 minutes but not identified until after 3 minutes is NOT lost. (Correct me if I've got that wrong).
In which case, B's ball had indeed been found (by A) within 3 minutes. Had player A taken the trouble to check the ball before he played it, then he would have noticed it wasn't his and B would then have had the opportunity to identify it. So I don't see how the ball was lost before it was played.
rulie
Head Pro
Let's see what the Rules say,
18.2a(1)/3 – Ball May Become Lost if It is Not Promptly Identified
When a player has the opportunity to identify a ball as his or hers within the three-minute search time but fails to do so, the ball is lost when the search time expires.
For example, a player begins to search for his or her ball and after two minutes finds a ball that the player believes to be another player’s ball and resumes search for his or her ball.
The three-minute search time elapses and it is then discovered that the ball the player found and believed to be another player’s ball was in fact the player’s ball. In this case, the player’s ball is lost because he or she continued the search, failing to identify the found ball promptly.
rulefan
Tour Winner
It's the identification that is key.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
How many times would you go over and look at a ball your op has identified as his own?From the original description of events, that's absolutely clear - if unfortunate for 'B'!
So the subsequent discovery that A played a Wrong Ball simply puts him/her out of the hole as well.
Pretty simple really!
I know it’s the rule but seems very harsh to me.
Colin L
Tour Winner
You would more likely just call over to him and ask him if he's checked to make sure it's his ball.
It's open to A and his partner if they feel it is harsh to concede the hole.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Not disputing the rule but.
If B said “ are you sure that’s your ball”
If A says “yes” is that Giving wrong information?
Is the penalty still the same?
I think in this situation I would have offered the half and go to the next tee.
Nobody is harshly done by then.
rulie
Head Pro
What do you mean by "giving wrong information"? The Rules deal with number of strokes taken (including penalty strokes).
Colin L
Tour Winner
See post #24
" In any case, innocently mistaking your opponent's ball and saying it is yours does not breach any rule I can think of. Rule 3.1d Responsibility of player and opponent is about informing your opponent about your score."
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
He has told him it’s his ball when it wasn’t! Accidental or not it’s still wrong.
He is not going to find his ball because it’s not lost anymore .
But by taking the word of his op about the ball he’s penalised for ops mistake.
But if A knows his ball is lost he can take one of his opponents with him, ( cynical view) but proving that would be difficult.
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