maybe oob?

[cliveb]

One of those questions has the answer - yes.

Cute.
OK, I have obviously misunderstood what you meant, so please could you explain how your suggestion works?

FWIW, this is how I interpreted it:

1. By defining that the far margin extends to infinity, that implies to me that a ball which ends anywhere over the red stakes, no matter how far, is in the hazard and therefore not OOB. Is that wrong? If it is, how do you define where OOB is?

2. If such a ball IS in the hazard and not OOB, then surely you can drop it back on the course within 2 club lengths of where it crossed the margin? Is that wrong, and if so why?

 

[Region3]

You mean so that I can happily slice a ball 100 yards over the boundary and still get to drop back in play beside the LWH?
I presume you are joking?
Or have I misunderstood what you mean?

I would guess there are plenty of courses along the coast that have the Atlantic or North Sea marked with red stakes.
If only the R&A would pay expenses for dropping on the other side

 

[rulefan]

Cute.
OK, I have obviously misunderstood what you meant, so please could you explain how your suggestion works?

FWIW, this is how I interpreted it:

1. By defining that the far margin extends to infinity, that implies to me that a ball which ends anywhere over the red stakes, no matter how far, is in the hazard and therefore not OOB. Is that wrong? If it is, how do you define where OOB is?

2. If such a ball IS in the hazard and not OOB, then surely you can drop it back on the course within 2 club lengths of where it crossed the margin? Is that wrong, and if so why?

I was in fact joking in this particular case - viz the emoticon

But see the post above for a legitimate condition requiring this solution. The frequently given example is Pebble Beach, where the LWH extends to Hawaii.

 

[rulefan]

I would guess there are plenty of courses along the coast that have the Atlantic or North Sea marked with red stakes.
If only the R&A would pay expenses for dropping on the other side

Or the Irish Sea or Liverpool Bay.

 

[Region3]

Or the Irish Sea or Liverpool Bay.

No, I don't want my expenses paid across those

 

[mikejohnchapman]

What both you and he saw, and your opinions, would be only part of the evidence to be considered by the Committee in deciding if the evidence supported "virtual certainty". To be safe, the player should play two balls under Rule 3-3 (stroke play only).

In terms of precedence what happens if he refuses to proceed under 3-3?

I assume the player will declare his score for the hole. Does his playing partner refuse to sign the card?
An alternative would be to go to the committee to advise you think it's a wrong score which, if upheld, would result in disqualification?

Either way I suspect it would get pretty ugly, pretty fast.

 

[cliveb]

I was in fact joking in this particular case - viz the emoticon

But see the post above for a legitimate condition requiring this solution. The frequently given example is Pebble Beach, where the LWH extends to Hawaii.

I still don't understand. Everyone keeps talking about LATERAL water hazards with RED stakes.

Unless I've lost my marbles, that means if you whack your ball into the Pacific Ocean over a red stake, you would be allowed to drop back on the course. (If the stakes were yellow, then I would understand). Clearly I'm missing something, so please educate me.

 

[delc]

I still don't understand. Everyone keeps talking about LATERAL water hazards with RED stakes.

Unless I've lost my marbles, that means if you whack your ball into the Pacific Ocean over a red stake, you would be allowed to drop back on the course. (If the stakes were yellow, then I would understand). Clearly I'm missing something, so please educate me.

No, you are not missing anything. The clue is in the word 'lateral'. Lateral water hazards generally run alongside the course and may be anything from ditches to oceans, where dropping behind the WH is clearly impracticable. They are marked by red lines or red stakes, which means you can drop on the course side, within 2 club lengths from where the ball crossed the hazard line and NNTH. In some circumstances you may also drop on the opposite side, which is OK for a ditch, but not for an ocean. 😀

 

[rulefan]

In some circumstances you may also drop on the opposite side, which is OK for a ditch, but not for an ocean. 

But this option is not available in the new draft that has now been published

 

[cliveb]

No, you are not missing anything. The clue is in the word 'lateral'. Lateral water hazards generally run alongside the course and may be anything from ditches to oceans, where dropping behind the WH is clearly impracticable. They are marked by red lines or red stakes, which means you can drop on the course side, within 2 club lengths from where the ball crossed the hazard line and NNTH. In some circumstances you may also drop on the opposite side, which is OK for a ditch, but not for an ocean. 😀

OK, so my understanding is as I thought.

Recall that the original post asked about a red-staked ditch with OOB immediately on the other side, and the difficulty in knowing whether a ball that went in that direction is in the hazard or has gone OOB. Making the LWH extend to infinity is one solution, but my thinking is that it fails to adequately punish a wildly-hit shot that's gone miles over the boundary. Making the ditch itself OOB seems the obvious solution - and one which is used at my own course.

 

[delc]

OK, so my understanding is as I thought.

Recall that the original post asked about a red-staked ditch with OOB immediately on the other side, and the difficulty in knowing whether a ball that went in that direction is in the hazard or has gone OOB. Making the LWH extend to infinity is one solution, but my thinking is that it fails to adequately punish a wildly-hit shot that's gone miles over the boundary. Making the ditch itself OOB seems the obvious solution - and one which is used at my own course.

Making a ditch that is part of the course OOB seems a bit harsh, unless it actually happens to mark the boundary of the course! It would preclude a penalty drop from a LWH, which avoids the distance penalty. ☹️

 

[MrC]

Interesting debate here as we are potentially saying that the person is lying/cheating for their own gain. Something that I am not comfortable with. A persons word should be good enough shouldn't it?

If I am certain something has happened to my ball and then my opponent or playing partner, who could gain to potentially benefit from my downfall, says different then this doesn't seem fair?

However I have, and I am sure we all have, played with people that will bend the rules for there own benefit so maybe I am in the wrong. Because I am the honest sort that doesn't win anything because I would call any penalty on myself.

 

[rulie]

Making a ditch that is part of the course OOB seems a bit harsh, unless it actually happens to mark the boundary of the course! It would preclude a penalty drop from a LWH, which avoids the distance penalty. ☹️

The Rules give the Committee in charge the responsibility and authority to mark out of bounds as they wish. The legal boundary of the property does not have to mark the end of where play is permitted. Two common misconceptions are that boundary lines must define out of bounds and that in course out of bounds is not permitted.