maybe oob?

[hovis]

we have a lateral hazard running along side our fairway. immediately beyond the hazard is oob. my pp hit a shank and off it rocketed. he then said it went in to the hazard. i said it was oob as i clearly saw it go through the hedge and out of the grounds. he said he was 100% sure it went in the hazard.

either way we couldn't find the ball as the lateral hazard was filled with leafs and oob was pretty much the same and inaccessible.


what is the ruling?

 

[delc]

we have a lateral hazard running along side our fairway. immediately beyond the hazard is oob. my pp hit a shank and off it rocketed. he then said it went in to the hazard. i said it was oob as i clearly saw it go through the hedge and out of the grounds. he said he was 100% sure it went in the hazard.

either way we couldn't find the ball as the lateral hazard was filled with leafs and oob was pretty much the same and inaccessible.


what is the ruling?

If there is doubt as to where the ball went (water hazard or oob), and it can't be found, then I would think it's a lost ball.

 

[hovis]

i said this but he said "he was virtually certain"

 

[Maninblack4612]

i said this but he said "he was virtually certain"

" 100% sure" or "virtually certain" ? Not the same thing. If you're sure you saw it go out don't think he can be virtually certain. Wouldn't it be sensible if the penalty for both was the same?

 

[delc]

i said this but he said "he was virtually certain"

If two golfers in a playing group disagree as to where the ball went, I would say there is not virtual certainty.

P.S. It doesn't really matter if it's lost or oob, as both are stroke and distance penalties. If it's in the water hazard then you can drop out under penalty of 1 stroke, but you have to know or be virtually certain that it's in there.

 

[Hosel Fade]

These situations are such a pain, theres similar on the 18th (9th Cowden) at Muckhart where there is a ditch marked as lateral hazard hard up against the OoB fence and you can't really see it well because of trees.

Suppose the easy solution would be to just mark the ditch as OoB as well because there will always be people trying to fraudently get the 2 cl drop.

 

[hovis]

If two golfers in a playing group disagree as to where the ball went, I would say there is not virtual certainty.

P.S. It doesn't really matter if it's lost or oob, as both are stroke and distance penalties. If it's in the water hazard then you can drop out under penalty of 1 stroke, but you have to know or be virtually certain that it's in there.

the penalty maybe the same but dropping out of the hazard left 50 yards to the pin where as replaying the shot would be about 180

 

[rulie]

i said this but he said "he was virtually certain"

It doesn't matter if the player is "virtually certain." Decision 26-1/1 and 26-1/1.5 require that all available evidence be considered (his opinion would be a part of the evidence) before it can be concluded that there is knowledge or virtual certainty. It's a high bar to achieve due to the significant advantage gained by not proceeding under stroke and distance.

I agree that course markings can create these situations - courses should be marked such that players can proceed correctly and have confidence that they are doing so. Marking the ditch as OOB would accomplish this.

 

[hovis]

It doesn't matter if the player is "virtually certain." Decision 26-1/1 and 26-1/1.5 require that all available evidence be considered (his opinion would be a part of the evidence) before it can be concluded that there is knowledge or virtual certainty. It's a high bar to achieve due to the significant advantage gained by not proceeding under stroke and distance.

I agree that course markings can create these situations - courses should be marked such that players can proceed correctly and have confidence that they are doing so. Marking the ditch as OOB would accomplish this.

he said he was 100% sure but used the word virtually certain as he must have heard it before. the problem was we where both 100% sure of what we saw

 

[rulie]

What both you and he saw, and your opinions, would be only part of the evidence to be considered by the Committee in deciding if the evidence supported "virtual certainty". To be safe, the player should play two balls under Rule 3-3 (stroke play only).

 

[Kellfire]

the penalty maybe the same but dropping out of the hazard left 50 yards to the pin where as replaying the shot would be about 180

I wish my shanks went 130 yards forward!

 

[rulefan]

we have a lateral hazard running along side our fairway. immediately beyond the hazard is oob. my pp hit a shank and off it rocketed. he then said it went in to the hazard. i said it was oob as i clearly saw it go through the hedge and out of the grounds. he said he was 100% sure it went in the hazard.

either way we couldn't find the ball as the lateral hazard was filled with leafs and oob was pretty much the same and inaccessible.


what is the ruling?

Was it possible that the ball could be somewhere other than in the ditch? If so, it is not virtually certain that the ball was in the ditch.

 

[hovis]

Was it possible that the ball could be somewhere other than in the ditch? If so, it is not virtually certain that the ball was in the ditch.

yeh. im 100% certain the ball flew over the ditch and through the hedge. but my friend said he was certain the ball come down in the ditch. we was looking at the shot from completely different angles. mine was better

 

[rulefan]

yeh. im 100% certain the ball flew over the ditch and through the hedge. but my friend said he was certain the ball come down in the ditch. we was looking at the shot from completely different angles. mine was better

So, regardless of what you both say you saw, when you got to the area, was there any possibility that the ball could have been 'hiding' elsewhere than in the water hazard.

ie on the course (long grass/bushes) or off the course (OOB in a ploughed field or in a field of cabbages)?

 

[hovis]

So, regardless of what you both say you saw, when you got to the area, was there any possibility that the ball could have been 'hiding' elsewhere than in the water hazard.

ie on the course (long grass/bushes) or off the course (OOB in a ploughed field or in a field of cabbages)?

yes

 

[Colin L]

Then there was no virtual certainty that it was in the water hazard.

 

[cliveb]

Suppose the easy solution would be to just mark the ditch as OoB as well because there will always be people trying to fraudently get the 2 cl drop.

Absolutely agree.
Our course has a number of ditches at the boundary, and they all have white (not red) stakes.
Go in one of those ditches, and you're OOB. Simples.

 

[rulefan]

Our course has a number of ditches at the boundary, and they all have white (not red) stakes.
Go in one of those ditches, and you're OOB. Simples.

Alternatively, mark the LWH with red stakes on the course side and say the far margin extends to infinity.

 

[cliveb]

Alternatively, mark the LWH with red stakes on the course side and say the far margin extends to infinity.

You mean so that I can happily slice a ball 100 yards over the boundary and still get to drop back in play beside the LWH?
I presume you are joking?
Or have I misunderstood what you mean?

 

[rulefan]

You mean so that I can happily slice a ball 100 yards over the boundary and still get to drop back in play beside the LWH?
I presume you are joking?
Or have I misunderstood what you mean?

One of those questions has the answer - yes.