Oddsocks
Ryder Cup Winner
I could be bordering 3 1/2 on my left, right is only slightly strong.
Managing a strong grip....
- Thread starter Oddsocks
- Start date
Lump
Tour Winner
Your bad shot a pull/hook?
Oddsocks
Ryder Cup Winner
Yes but it's mainly due to leaving the weight on the back foot with an armsy swing and little rotation.
The other day I stumbled upon this, regarding covering the ball and not firing the hips leaving the shoulders behind.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwvJ1qLc1YQ
After one range session with 100 balls Monday night and 50 to warm up pre round Tuesday I went out and hit some of the best balls I'd hit in months, 35 points off the whites on a course I didn't know, in heavy fog on bumpy greens I was generally happy with my gold that day apart from a couple of sketchy 5i's and the score would have been up into the 39/40/41 had it not been for silly bumpy greens meaning a cold putter from inside 6tt which is normally my strong point. Off to a lesson on Wednesday and now I'm stuck trying to get to where the pro wants me... And where I was, all I will say is where I was wasn't that bad, where I am now sucks!
The other day I stumbled upon this, regarding covering the ball and not firing the hips leaving the shoulders behind.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwvJ1qLc1YQ
After one range session with 100 balls Monday night and 50 to warm up pre round Tuesday I went out and hit some of the best balls I'd hit in months, 35 points off the whites on a course I didn't know, in heavy fog on bumpy greens I was generally happy with my gold that day apart from a couple of sketchy 5i's and the score would have been up into the 39/40/41 had it not been for silly bumpy greens meaning a cold putter from inside 6tt which is normally my strong point. Off to a lesson on Wednesday and now I'm stuck trying to get to where the pro wants me... And where I was, all I will say is where I was wasn't that bad, where I am now sucks!
chrisd
Major Champion
You really do have to bite the bullet Baz. It's crap weather, middle of winter and nows the time to make the changes, change the grip now, get to the range as often as possible and by the time the season begins it'll be second nature.
My pro has just flattened my swing plane with my hands not getting stuck behind me, a big change but one that I shall stick with for the same reason.
My pro has just flattened my swing plane with my hands not getting stuck behind me, a big change but one that I shall stick with for the same reason.
One Planer
Global Moderator
Exactly this.
I'm making one of the biggest changes since I started lessons now and specifically waited until the 'off-season' to do it so I had time to get to grips with it.
apj0524
Head Pro
Whether its right I'm not sure but since start playing again 6 months ago, I have found a stronger grip for my Driver suits me better to eliminate the tendency to slice, I also have my right foot slight back to open my right side which helps my swing inside to out. When using my my irons I find a neutral grip is the way to go.
I'm guessing this is wrong, but my pro how is giving me lessons is happy with this, probably thinks there are bigger issues to sort out!
I'm guessing this is wrong, but my pro how is giving me lessons is happy with this, probably thinks there are bigger issues to sort out!
the_coach
Journeyman Pro
Hi Oddsocks, newbie to forum here (not new to golf)
My reply tempered with the fact that PGA Pro would know what they're up to.
My take would be, you say strong left hand grip, is your right hand palm parallel to this as well?
Is the grip in the left hand more in the palm than it should really be? grip in palm not more in fingers would tend to lead to a tense locked forearm anyway whether strong or neutral.
Changing grip even slightly hugely uncomfortable so folks immediately tend to put a 'death' grip on it anyways.
Whilst you can work around a strong grip, Zack & Dustin Johnson, Azinger plus many more have done but to do so effectively you have to have compensations in the swing to get good impact conditions. generally that would mean pretty quick and pronounced left hip turn and body turn through impact, as if you don't you'll wrap arms and hands around body and hook it all day or it can lead to getting shaft stuck behind you and block it way right.
Best answer would be change in grip to neutral:
Best way I've got folks to do this is simply in spare time at home, for them to pick up a club and get the constant repeat feel of how a neutral grip feels and do it with (on a scale of 1 to 10), grip pressure at around 4 or 5, don't swing it, just gentle feel the weight of club head in your hands, do it often enough takes some perseverance but it will pay dividends in the long run, depends what your goals are really.
Good check point generally for anyone, that first shaft parallel to ground, parallel to target line, and over and parallel to toe line, toe of club up, leading edge of club perpendicular to ground, but particularly toe up for you as you don't want face, leading edge looking towards target line any at all.
Still better checkpoint though (as there's sadly still lot can go wrong from here to position at the top), for me, is your face, leading edge angle at the top of your swing.
As even from toe up at first parallel with strong grip. it's still with a strong grip easy to close the face down as your hands set and right arm folds to the top. Mirror good, outdoors house window, patio door reflections if weather okay too works, or video this position on propped up phone.
So you can check at the top that face angle, leading edge parallel to your left forearm plane, the face of the club mustn't look up at the sky at the top. Reason this is a better place to check is that from here it only takes 2 tenths of a second to impact, not time enough to correct it and if you're not clearing well it's going to be inconsistent face angle through impact.
Hope you get it all ironed out. Cheers.
My reply tempered with the fact that PGA Pro would know what they're up to.
My take would be, you say strong left hand grip, is your right hand palm parallel to this as well?
Is the grip in the left hand more in the palm than it should really be? grip in palm not more in fingers would tend to lead to a tense locked forearm anyway whether strong or neutral.
Changing grip even slightly hugely uncomfortable so folks immediately tend to put a 'death' grip on it anyways.
Whilst you can work around a strong grip, Zack & Dustin Johnson, Azinger plus many more have done but to do so effectively you have to have compensations in the swing to get good impact conditions. generally that would mean pretty quick and pronounced left hip turn and body turn through impact, as if you don't you'll wrap arms and hands around body and hook it all day or it can lead to getting shaft stuck behind you and block it way right.
Best answer would be change in grip to neutral:
Best way I've got folks to do this is simply in spare time at home, for them to pick up a club and get the constant repeat feel of how a neutral grip feels and do it with (on a scale of 1 to 10), grip pressure at around 4 or 5, don't swing it, just gentle feel the weight of club head in your hands, do it often enough takes some perseverance but it will pay dividends in the long run, depends what your goals are really.
Good check point generally for anyone, that first shaft parallel to ground, parallel to target line, and over and parallel to toe line, toe of club up, leading edge of club perpendicular to ground, but particularly toe up for you as you don't want face, leading edge looking towards target line any at all.
Still better checkpoint though (as there's sadly still lot can go wrong from here to position at the top), for me, is your face, leading edge angle at the top of your swing.
As even from toe up at first parallel with strong grip. it's still with a strong grip easy to close the face down as your hands set and right arm folds to the top. Mirror good, outdoors house window, patio door reflections if weather okay too works, or video this position on propped up phone.
So you can check at the top that face angle, leading edge parallel to your left forearm plane, the face of the club mustn't look up at the sky at the top. Reason this is a better place to check is that from here it only takes 2 tenths of a second to impact, not time enough to correct it and if you're not clearing well it's going to be inconsistent face angle through impact.
Hope you get it all ironed out. Cheers.
Oddsocks
Ryder Cup Winner
Coach thanks for taking the time to type an in depth reply, my pro is saying that on takeaway at parallel to ground my club face points toe behind me on maybe a 45* angle instead of toe up, this at the top leads to a shut face where the leading edge of the club is completely horizontal to the ground on worst cases even more closed than this maybe by 15/20* stronger or more shut that Johnson as a reference point. According to him this leads to so major compensation throughout the down swing in order to rescue shots. Hitting a fade is near on impossible with a straight shot being the best I can manage, a soft draw can result in a sketchy snap hook or a major push. Also with such a strong grip it seems very hard to get over the ball especially with irons in order to hit ball turf with any compression
He has requested I try to get the left hand more neutral but if not (which seems the outcome) the option of manipulating the swing path/plane in order to compensate it seems a more logical/achievable outcome. With this like you have referred he has me with the below reference point.
With the club parallel to the ground, the top being up, and if your was looking down the target line the face being between twelve and one o'clock if that makes sense, almost slightly hooded but by a small margin
It would seem from here if I can hold this to the top I can come down on a neutral plane with a neutral club face and this has me hitting soft fades. He assures me not to worry about the fade that I'm seeing as there are other mechanics in the swing that will straighten this out, such as covering the ball etc, but the main thing is I've I'm seeing fades on the range the grip change is working, if it isn't then I'm I'm still strong and we can't move on to phase 2", but he doesn't want to do this until a neutral or more neutral grip is there as he has said that with this grip compressing or covering the ball properly is going to end in big hooks,
Even though the results seem a total confidence killer and there is no chance of me hitting a course any time soon, does the above
Be sound plausible?
Chris/Gareth - I know now is the time to get this working and stripping it back, but it's nice to see some sort of positive improvements in order to keep motivation up... At the moment this is not the case so maybe that's why I'm questioning the path the pro has chosen .
What was funny is we reviewed past lesson videos
2008 - strong grip shut at the top
2009 - as above
2010 - as above
2011-2012 I went to a different coach as the range was getting refitted, he did get me more neutral but it seems to have slipped back
2013/2014" back to shut at the top.
It really is about time that I knuckle down and break this dam grip!
He has requested I try to get the left hand more neutral but if not (which seems the outcome) the option of manipulating the swing path/plane in order to compensate it seems a more logical/achievable outcome. With this like you have referred he has me with the below reference point.
With the club parallel to the ground, the top being up, and if your was looking down the target line the face being between twelve and one o'clock if that makes sense, almost slightly hooded but by a small margin
It would seem from here if I can hold this to the top I can come down on a neutral plane with a neutral club face and this has me hitting soft fades. He assures me not to worry about the fade that I'm seeing as there are other mechanics in the swing that will straighten this out, such as covering the ball etc, but the main thing is I've I'm seeing fades on the range the grip change is working, if it isn't then I'm I'm still strong and we can't move on to phase 2", but he doesn't want to do this until a neutral or more neutral grip is there as he has said that with this grip compressing or covering the ball properly is going to end in big hooks,
Even though the results seem a total confidence killer and there is no chance of me hitting a course any time soon, does the above
Be sound plausible?
Chris/Gareth - I know now is the time to get this working and stripping it back, but it's nice to see some sort of positive improvements in order to keep motivation up... At the moment this is not the case so maybe that's why I'm questioning the path the pro has chosen .
What was funny is we reviewed past lesson videos
2008 - strong grip shut at the top
2009 - as above
2010 - as above
2011-2012 I went to a different coach as the range was getting refitted, he did get me more neutral but it seems to have slipped back
2013/2014" back to shut at the top.
It really is about time that I knuckle down and break this dam grip!
the_coach
Journeyman Pro
With this like you have referred he has me with the below reference point.
With the club parallel to the ground, the top being up, and if your was looking down the target line the face being between twelve and one o'clock if that makes sense, almost slightly hooded but by a small margin
It would seem from here if I can hold this to the top I can come down on a neutral plane with a neutral club face and this has me hitting soft fades. He assures me not to worry about the fade that I'm seeing as there are other mechanics in the swing that will straighten this out, such as covering the ball etc, but the main thing is I've I'm seeing fades on the range the grip change is working, if it isn't then I'm I'm still strong and we can't move on to phase 2", but he doesn't want to do this until a neutral or more neutral grip is there as he has said that with this grip compressing or covering the ball properly is going to end in big hooks,
Even though the results seem a total confidence killer and there is no chance of me hitting a course any time soon, does the above
Be sound plausible?
Hey Oddsocks. Working through a grip change for golfer whose been used to a grip for a while is without doubt one of the hardest things to do. But will, if you can do it give you the best chance of moving from the plateau you're on to further improvement, also with that neutral grip you can then move through other things needing to be modified much easier.
This time of the year absolutely the best time to make a grip change, make yourself as familiar as you can with the neutral grip (both hands) so you don't get left and right palm lining up in opposition to each other.
The best way to do this is I know is as I described take up the new grip as often as you can, just feeling the weight of the club head, don't swing, as soon as you swing especially hitting a shot your brain will want to go back to what's comfortable -the old grip, and in golf what's comfortable if you're not hitting it pure is usualLy wrong!
In the past I've cut down old clubs for folks so you've got a club that's 18" or 24" long club head to grip, made sure the thin shaft is padded out to get a normal grip thickness and given it to them to work on assembling their grip properly when at home.
Would say as hard as it seems it really is the best thing you could possibly do, stick at it and when you're at the other side of it and the 'new grip' seems second nature you will totally get why, once you experience the new quality of the strikes.
Try my advice of when you have a spare moment or two form a neutral grip with relaxed grip strength, don't swing just feel the weight of the club head.
{My background so you get an angle of where I'm coming from is, at my best I was off +3 (before life and wife and kids come into the equation), played regional, state, national, international amateur tournies. Back to one over a few season of not playing competition as much or playing enough full stop but finished this season on the way back down currently just a point away from scratch. From that background I help coach elite junior, intermediate and senior (as in no longer youth, not over 50's senior players!!)}
At that first parallel the toe of the club, the goldilocks position for me is that leading edge mirrors, is parallel to your spine angle which I think is what you are saying which is great. But between there and the leading edge vertical toe up is acceptable.
From there if you just set your left wrist thumb up (on the 'snuff box' joint at the base of your thumb) and let your right hand go along for the ride, the angle between left wrist and shaft will be somewhere around 90d (where it should be)
Then it's just a matter of completing your shoulder turn and remaining in posture (spine angle same as address with forward lean to target line plus the side spine angle formed because your right hand is lower on the club at address therefore your right shoulder right hip is also lower than that of the left side.) That way you don't get any rising up vertically as you go back.
Once your shoulder turn stops so should your arms. Any deviation from this, any extra arm movement because sunconciously you don't feel you'll get distance, will actually limit the effect of the turn because somehow then you'll have to get the arms to match up with the shoulders as a compensation on the way to impact.
Leading edge of the club at the top then echoes the plane of your left forearm.
From what you describe as then having a fade (although always difficult to talk about blind without seeing a swing) it sounds very much to me as if you swing path is a little out first and then down, therefore slight out to in swing path and depending on a slightly open club face you'll get that fade.
That initial transition if slightly out from the top (by that I mean the right shoulder moves a little towards target line before moving downwards) usually happens because the club arms shoulder unit moves first going back to the ball, where as you want to start the transition back to the ball from the ground up.
Feel as the first move in transition back to impact is the ball of the left foot pressing downwards smoothly into the ground (pressing a tee in the ground or squeezing a little water out of a sponge is the feeling I'm trying to describe) this will get your ankle back over your foot left knee moves anti-clockwise over your ankle so those joints line up with your hip socket and you've got a firm left leg for your left hip to clear left and you to swing and body pivot against. This ground first movement as the effect automatically of dropping the club back behind you a little (I don't mean towards the ground but back a little away from the ball target line) this is the club starting to shallow out a little (what you'll here the golf TV pundits talking about often) which starts it on the right swing path to deliver the club through impact slightly from the inside, it'll drop you nicely into the delivery position right elbow close to right hip still maintain the set in your hands form there you just fire and turn over that left leg. Club head inside to square back to inside don't try to hold the club online straight after impact, often feels like what you should be doing but really it isn't at all. Stand DTL of a pro good am and you'll see very shortly after impact you can''t see the club head as it's gone left then up, have a look at some good top swings DTL you'll see what I mean. You don't have to fear the ball going left from this (natural thing to worry about but it's wrong) as long as you've cleared your left hip and kept rotating torso/upper body and shoulders the club will be square at impact, it's when you stop that upper body rotation that the arms hands take over and a hook will then be there all day long or fearing this hook you don't commit to the shot and the left hip doesn't clear then there is no room for the arms hands and clubs to come through and the upper body and arms come up and you'll either block it way right or depending on the face angle through impact you can even block/push slice it.
Sorry this is long, tried to be precise difficult just writing excuse any typos .... but hey if you've got to the end of this, congrats you must have the will to change that grip too !!! Ha
Shout if you can bear to ask anything else!! and I'll do my best to help, may take a while to get back to you not really got the gist on the forum of how you know if someone's asked you directly about anything yet.
Good luck, hope this helps a but. Cheers.
With the club parallel to the ground, the top being up, and if your was looking down the target line the face being between twelve and one o'clock if that makes sense, almost slightly hooded but by a small margin
It would seem from here if I can hold this to the top I can come down on a neutral plane with a neutral club face and this has me hitting soft fades. He assures me not to worry about the fade that I'm seeing as there are other mechanics in the swing that will straighten this out, such as covering the ball etc, but the main thing is I've I'm seeing fades on the range the grip change is working, if it isn't then I'm I'm still strong and we can't move on to phase 2", but he doesn't want to do this until a neutral or more neutral grip is there as he has said that with this grip compressing or covering the ball properly is going to end in big hooks,
Even though the results seem a total confidence killer and there is no chance of me hitting a course any time soon, does the above
Be sound plausible?
Hey Oddsocks. Working through a grip change for golfer whose been used to a grip for a while is without doubt one of the hardest things to do. But will, if you can do it give you the best chance of moving from the plateau you're on to further improvement, also with that neutral grip you can then move through other things needing to be modified much easier.
This time of the year absolutely the best time to make a grip change, make yourself as familiar as you can with the neutral grip (both hands) so you don't get left and right palm lining up in opposition to each other.
The best way to do this is I know is as I described take up the new grip as often as you can, just feeling the weight of the club head, don't swing, as soon as you swing especially hitting a shot your brain will want to go back to what's comfortable -the old grip, and in golf what's comfortable if you're not hitting it pure is usualLy wrong!
In the past I've cut down old clubs for folks so you've got a club that's 18" or 24" long club head to grip, made sure the thin shaft is padded out to get a normal grip thickness and given it to them to work on assembling their grip properly when at home.
Would say as hard as it seems it really is the best thing you could possibly do, stick at it and when you're at the other side of it and the 'new grip' seems second nature you will totally get why, once you experience the new quality of the strikes.
Try my advice of when you have a spare moment or two form a neutral grip with relaxed grip strength, don't swing just feel the weight of the club head.
{My background so you get an angle of where I'm coming from is, at my best I was off +3 (before life and wife and kids come into the equation), played regional, state, national, international amateur tournies. Back to one over a few season of not playing competition as much or playing enough full stop but finished this season on the way back down currently just a point away from scratch. From that background I help coach elite junior, intermediate and senior (as in no longer youth, not over 50's senior players!!)}
At that first parallel the toe of the club, the goldilocks position for me is that leading edge mirrors, is parallel to your spine angle which I think is what you are saying which is great. But between there and the leading edge vertical toe up is acceptable.
From there if you just set your left wrist thumb up (on the 'snuff box' joint at the base of your thumb) and let your right hand go along for the ride, the angle between left wrist and shaft will be somewhere around 90d (where it should be)
Then it's just a matter of completing your shoulder turn and remaining in posture (spine angle same as address with forward lean to target line plus the side spine angle formed because your right hand is lower on the club at address therefore your right shoulder right hip is also lower than that of the left side.) That way you don't get any rising up vertically as you go back.
Once your shoulder turn stops so should your arms. Any deviation from this, any extra arm movement because sunconciously you don't feel you'll get distance, will actually limit the effect of the turn because somehow then you'll have to get the arms to match up with the shoulders as a compensation on the way to impact.
Leading edge of the club at the top then echoes the plane of your left forearm.
From what you describe as then having a fade (although always difficult to talk about blind without seeing a swing) it sounds very much to me as if you swing path is a little out first and then down, therefore slight out to in swing path and depending on a slightly open club face you'll get that fade.
That initial transition if slightly out from the top (by that I mean the right shoulder moves a little towards target line before moving downwards) usually happens because the club arms shoulder unit moves first going back to the ball, where as you want to start the transition back to the ball from the ground up.
Feel as the first move in transition back to impact is the ball of the left foot pressing downwards smoothly into the ground (pressing a tee in the ground or squeezing a little water out of a sponge is the feeling I'm trying to describe) this will get your ankle back over your foot left knee moves anti-clockwise over your ankle so those joints line up with your hip socket and you've got a firm left leg for your left hip to clear left and you to swing and body pivot against. This ground first movement as the effect automatically of dropping the club back behind you a little (I don't mean towards the ground but back a little away from the ball target line) this is the club starting to shallow out a little (what you'll here the golf TV pundits talking about often) which starts it on the right swing path to deliver the club through impact slightly from the inside, it'll drop you nicely into the delivery position right elbow close to right hip still maintain the set in your hands form there you just fire and turn over that left leg. Club head inside to square back to inside don't try to hold the club online straight after impact, often feels like what you should be doing but really it isn't at all. Stand DTL of a pro good am and you'll see very shortly after impact you can''t see the club head as it's gone left then up, have a look at some good top swings DTL you'll see what I mean. You don't have to fear the ball going left from this (natural thing to worry about but it's wrong) as long as you've cleared your left hip and kept rotating torso/upper body and shoulders the club will be square at impact, it's when you stop that upper body rotation that the arms hands take over and a hook will then be there all day long or fearing this hook you don't commit to the shot and the left hip doesn't clear then there is no room for the arms hands and clubs to come through and the upper body and arms come up and you'll either block it way right or depending on the face angle through impact you can even block/push slice it.
Sorry this is long, tried to be precise difficult just writing excuse any typos .... but hey if you've got to the end of this, congrats you must have the will to change that grip too !!! Ha
Shout if you can bear to ask anything else!! and I'll do my best to help, may take a while to get back to you not really got the gist on the forum of how you know if someone's asked you directly about anything yet.
Good luck, hope this helps a but. Cheers.
Oddsocks
Ryder Cup Winner
Jesus Christ, what underwear should I wear while doing this
On a serious note, thanks for such an in depth response, it may take a few reads to get the most out of it but it seems you and my pro have common views, which is reassuring.
I've writes a pm too,
Thanks again.
On a serious note, thanks for such an in depth response, it may take a few reads to get the most out of it but it seems you and my pro have common views, which is reassuring.
I've writes a pm too,
Thanks again.
