Losing lag (with Flight scope Data included)

[tugglesf239]

Also

Just been googling. I think 'flipping' is maybe the wrong term fir what I do.

I'd say it is more of an early release that I suffer from. If there is a difference ?

 

[hovis]

Also

Just been googling. I think 'flipping' is maybe the wrong term fir what I do.

I'd say it is more of an early release that I suffer from. If there is a difference ?

same thing imo. just don't let anyone tell you to drag the handle through impact. it the death move

 

[tugglesf239]

same thing imo. just don't let anyone tell you to drag the handle through impact. it the death move

Off to the range now.
Will report back

 

[Lump]

question for you.

Can you hit the ball low? I.E a punch shot. I play with a guy that early extends and he's can't hit a low shot with any club.
That is sorta the feeling your looking for. (you want to feel the club head being shallow for longer through the ball)

 

[the_coach]

Thanks coach.

I do believe the weight ends up on my toes sometimes and can shank them when I am not careful.

I tend to strike the ball near the heel but over the last few sessions have been much more out the middle of the club. My irons are black and it is easy to see this happening.

I do have a tendany so be a little inside on the takeaway, however this has got much better over the last year (primary focus of mine). Still lots of room for improvement

I'll get a clip loaded as soon as I can.

Reference your first question. I'm a 5'9 short arse. Ha

couple of things you could consider with the takeback tendency to get sucked inside - spend a whole bunch of practice time with an alignment stick just approx 1" off of the trail foot & parallel to the target line
easy then to check position of takeback then when the shaft is first horizontal to ground should also be parallel to the stick
thing to watch out for as soon as you go into motion watch that the hands are not 'active' straightways by that mean watch the hands don't get pushed out aways from you & you then break the wrists over as that immediately points the shaft back & behind

cool alignment aid coming out called the 'hanger' (for obvious reasons when you see it) https://www.hangergolf.com/

but as the name suggests you could use an ordinary plastic hanger and hold the straight edge against the grip while keeping the top part touching the lead arm - just that although a bunch cheaper it's a tad more inconvenient as you keep having to re-grip the ordinary hanger against the handle each time you start (how the training aid is attached means you don't have to)

here's a video of the pelvic punch drill - object of which is pretty clear thing is not to try to swing at full speed when doing it

but generally anyways if you got better contact at impact with a more controlled connected swing at even the high 80's mph so say 88/89mph with 7i you would still be getting the ball out there a decent distance but on a much more reliable trajectory with better overall dispersion

[video=youtube;GaC4ze2OMHg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaC4ze2OMHg[/video]

 

[the_coach]

just an addition to that last post re the 'training aid'

often times use a plastic hanger as an aid with folks as for sure can help getting the arms hands handle in much better impact conditions it's is just a tad cumbersome in having to hold the straight edge on the outside of the handle

so this aid would help but only if used correctly of course & no I'm not connected with the guys selling it in any way!!!
am not getting a cut here so no vested interest !!!
just it could help folks

but do know though that if a pre-order goes in before shipping starts{early March I think} there's a saving of $30 on price so $49 instead of the $79 it will be - plus around $20 shipping then plus tax
- if use this discount code SHG17 at checkout can get a further 10% off

this not a sales pitch just info should anyone be at all interested

 

[the_coach]

another vid of the same drill
if trying the pelvic punch drill really got to be rigorous in how it's done - so don't try and adapt the drill to suit the way the club has always been delivered as that ain't goin to help any - so starting off trying it there may well be a whole bunch of bad contacts and mis-strikes from rockets to quick hooks - but the thing to remember is to pay real attention to how the drill is really done and keep to trying to repeat the proper 'form' - the moves as shown - then stuff should improve to feel proper 'compression' at strike along with ball flying straight to aim line - not about distance here in anyways ball will just go however far it does with good contact and it will stay pretty low in flight

a good drill thought doing this is while working to having weight pressure downwards into the lead leg/foot along with rotating the hip & torso & chest/shoulders - the belt buckle and navel turn through the ball position a tad before the arms/hands/handle

[video=youtube;OkJbM__Juhg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkJbM__Juhg[/video]

 

[tugglesf239]

question for you.

Can you hit the ball low? I.E a punch shot. I play with a guy that early extends and he's can't hit a low shot with any club.
That is sorta the feeling your looking for. (you want to feel the club head being shallow for longer through the ball)

Good question.

Answer is not really. Well not consistently and not without really using my hands. My low shot would probably be the same as another's medium to high I reckon

 

[tugglesf239]

another vid of the same drill
if trying the pelvic punch drill really got to be rigorous in how it's done - so don't try and adapt the drill to suit the way the club has always been delivered as that ain't goin to help any - so starting off trying it there may well be a whole bunch of bad contacts and mis-strikes from rockets to quick hooks - but the thing to remember is to pay real attention to how the drill is really done and keep to trying to repeat the proper 'form' - the moves as shown - then stuff should improve to feel proper 'compression' at strike along with ball flying straight to aim line - not about distance here in anyways ball will just go however far it does with good contact and it will stay pretty low in flight

a good drill thought doing this is while working to having weight pressure downwards into the lead leg/foot along with rotating the hip & torso & chest/shoulders - the belt buckle and navel turn through the ball position a tad before the arms/hands/handle

[video=youtube;OkJbM__Juhg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkJbM__Juhg[/video]

Thanks coach.

Filmed my swing yesterday and even though I was hitting the ball really well. I've noticed I still get very inside on takeaway.

I'll upload it when I'm jump on my PC Later.

Looked very different to my lesson swing. Bad habits hard to shake

 

[tugglesf239]

sorry for the delay

Filmed this last week and spotted two things straight away.

One i am still over rotating my hands on the back swing and getting flat (old habit that is proving hard to kill but lessons ongoing specifically about this). I also see i nearly jumped out of my shoes on the downswing.

Not pretty but i was hitting my 9 iron really well and straight.

[video=youtube;IgHmbKPWwJE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgHmbKPWwJE[/video]

 

[Garush34]

For your over rotating hands why not try the tour striker educator?

https://www.tourstriker.com/shop/product_details.aspx?p=170

I have used this recently to stop flipping on chips and it has worked for me. You can use it on full swings too, which I am going to work on this week.

 

[the_coach]

sorry for the delay

Filmed this last week and spotted two things straight away.

One i am still over rotating my hands on the back swing and getting flat (old habit that is proving hard to kill but lessons ongoing specifically about this). I also see i nearly jumped out of my shoes on the downswing.

Not pretty but i was hitting my 9 iron really well and straight.

kinda the overall or one of the overall reasons that the swing motion on the downswing loses the angles (though that said if the launch monitor is functioning correctly a 95mph 7i with loss of the angles is still goin some for sure) all starts from how the takeaway move aways from stationary

- given that initial takeback movement will come back to that - not sure that the grip on the handle looks 'overstrong' here even if knuckles of lead hand around 2 & the trail hand isn't too 'under' the handle - as said doesn't particularly look like it is but hard to tell from this viewpoint & lighting - so would check that the handle is not running too high up in the palms and also just check that the grip pressure here isn't a ways too strong on the handle so it then really tenses up the forearms (somewheres around 'ideal' is having a hold that still has control but with that the forearms stay 'soft' (so some give if anyone was to press fingers into the forearm muscle) - worthwhile checking out

(worth while checking too looking at posture that at set-up the weight pressure isn't starting off tad too much on the front of the feet/toes - good ways to feel were the weight is is just to rock on to the toes then back on the heels to feel the 2 extremes then settle back with weight through center - can also use an alignment stick under the middle of the feet to emphasize this)

so from the top of the swing position then instinctively you are going to have to lose the angles (lag) on the ways down to be able to get the face-angle to match up to anywheres near 'square-ish' to path to get ball goin to target

- if with the same move back you just came down into impact with a good bunch of angle (lag) still
then the face-angle is goin to be a ways open & given the swing speed #'s goin to be blasting it some distance rightfield unless you stopped body rotation & wrapped the hands/arms hard left then it's goin hard leftfield - very hard to time to get 'straight' flight if you kept the 'angle' between hands/arms & shaft

so if you look at the initial move away you see the hands/handle move out & away a tad as the hands hinge back some if pause the swing when shaft is around 1st horizontal to ground can see the shaft is pointing back some behind you so a ways from being parallel to the toe line & ball target line with the face-angle 'open' a good ways
(this initial move back often times along with weight on the toes can give a spell of the 'rockets')

so if you then pause when the lead arm is 1st horizontal to ground can see that too is pointing back behind a ways off parallel to toe line & you imagine a line here continuing down from the shaft can see that's pointing a good ways over other side of the ball/target line ( an 'ideal' area for the butt end of club to be pointing at this stage would be somewhere in-between the ball/target line & the foot line)
so the shaft here halfways back is a bunch on the flat side

this early hands/handle out move so clubhead back is something a lot of folks do because it 'feels' like a pretty strong motion to make in order the swing the clubhead fast but it's a ways destructive as it means a bunch of compensations to get ball to target
(& unfortunately counterintuitively a sound first move away with 'quiet' hands 'feels' to folks like a lot 'weaker' ways in terms of power generation which is way folks gravitate to this hands out break back type of move straight off)

top of the swing has a tad of lift up because of the flat-ish move away & also shaft across the line with a cupped lead wrist

so starting off with the root cause goin to have to look at how the club is taken away - if goin to make in the long term a change to what happens in the swing or just goin to have to try to work with what's there & accept from time to time it could go a ways pear-shaped

you'd be looking at something like a small beach ball (though are training aids you can buy - would stay aways from the 'tennis ball aid' as that's pretty difficult to master with the initial amount of movement of the hands) that you put between the forearms to be able to develop quiet hands so the chest rotates in sync with the arms (that more one-piece takeback feel) that keeps the clubhead face-angle initially 'looking' more at the ball so the clubhead is moving back over initial 8" more in a straight line with the clubhead staying outside the hands

then when the shaft is first horizontal of ground the shaft is more parallel to toe line with the leading edge of the face more matching the spine angle - so get there the trail hands softens some to have a tad of an angle but the lead hand angle remains pretty much as it started from then a feeling of both thumbs moving to point at the sky from the horizontal shaft position has the handset and shaft more 'vertical' (butt end grip pointing between the foot line & ball target line with lead arm more parallel to toe line when it's first horizontal to ground)
from there it's a just a completion of body rotation to the top

sounds a lot but for real it's just looking at the first move away - though get that it's not that easy sometimes for folks to adapt to that change
if you imagine the move that Ricky Fowler rehearses in his takeback since working with Butch that would be a useful image to have and to work to

& the tour striker inflatable ball on a lanyard would be a decent training aid - against that it ain't cheap - but a kids half size beachball would be good - slightly move difficult to use but also can go the trick is the 'round' plastic range buckets - so the bigger ball or round bucket placed at the top of the forearms kinda just under the elbows

for the pelvic punch drill to work you going to have to make sure you start off with the hands in a position so that the club shaft is parallel to the foot line (so that alignment stick down off of the trail foot matching the foot line so you can check) as in the 'normal' swing motion used the shaft is a fair ways off being parallel to toe line (as you can see if pause the vid)

 

[tugglesf239]

Really appreciate you taking the time to post all that Coach.

This point really stands out

"so starting off with the root cause goin to have to look at how the club is taken away - if goin to make in the long term a change to what happens in the swing or just goin to have to try to work with what's there & accept from time to time it could go a ways pear-shaped"

Honestly i have been trying to stop the over rotation for maybe 3 years now (when it was identified) and honestly i have made progress during my last lessons

(Top image is the "after" pic)

Honestly though as soon as i am left to my own devices the bad habits keep back in.

Ive tried drills, training aides etc but i really struggle.

I first created this thread because i thought i had finally got the back swing sorted and could now concentrate on getting through the ball properly...

Obviously not.

Looking at the Fowler drill now to see what he does.

Again, really appreciate the time taken to post the advice. Lot to take in so ill report back soon

 

[the_coach]

Really appreciate you taking the time to post all that Coach.

This point really stands out

"so starting off with the root cause goin to have to look at how the club is taken away - if goin to make in the long term a change to what happens in the swing or just goin to have to try to work with what's there & accept from time to time it could go a ways pear-shaped"

Honestly i have been trying to stop the over rotation for maybe 3 years now (when it was identified) and honestly i have made progress during my last lessons


Honestly though as soon as i am left to my own devices the bad habits keep back in.

Ive tried drills, training aides etc but i really struggle.

I first created this thread because i thought i had finally got the back swing sorted and could now concentrate on getting through the ball properly...

Obviously not.

Looking at the Fowler drill now to see what he does.

Again, really appreciate the time taken to post the advice. Lot to take in so ill report back soon

you're welcome hope there's something in there that helps some

appreciate what you are saying
get how hard it can be for folks often times to change stuff & especially a first off move away that's been grooved over time

couple things that maybes could help

age old simple drill that can work through practice simply place a 2nd ball some 3" at back of the clubhead of say a 6i or 7i

& with the takeback just got to roll the ball nice & smooth & easy straightways back only ways you can do this is through having quiet hands & using the upper body rotation (so trail shoulder immediately rotates back behind) to move the arm triangle - you break the hands early as is the norm & you could miss the ball behind completely of knock it off at an angle

good focus have found works with some folks is while doing this above drill or not is at set-up if you look down at the lead hand there's an angle formed between the base of the thumb and the wrist so very top of the thumb base/wrist as you look down (not the angle between the back of the lead hand and wrist)

so just in rehearsal focus on that angle at the snuff-box joint and simply rotate the trail shoulder back behind you keeping that angle exactly the same as the hands move past the trail thigh just allow the trail hand to soften back on itself a tad - should find if you can do that you'll get to the shaft 1st horizontal to ground and the shaft will be parallel to the toe line with the thumbs as you look 'on top' of the handle (so not turned over any ways) from there it's just hinge those thumbs up to the sky & complete the true to the top

thing is though this will 'feel' to you - after longtime doing the other - a very weak kinda takeback it isn't though in fact completely the reverse - but it's a 'feel' you will have to overcome

other thing is if really deciding to go down this route of re-progamming the takeback/backswing although it's a chore you for a time going to have to use the alignment stick on the ground so can always 'see' out of the corner of the eye exactly where the shaft is - it's a useful visual reminder
& although an even greater pain you goin to have to record on the cell the practice as you go so every few swings you can check the video to see what's actually happening - as opposed to just hitting balls & trusting in 'feel' as that 'feel to real' will revert back to old habits but you think you still doing what should be

anyways good luck

 

[njrose51]

1st. I'm no expert. 2nd. I can only speak from experience.

I had an issue with flipping in that the club head was arriving at the ball before my hands, giving me quite a high shot and loosing me distance.

The simple fix with my pro was to cock the wrists a lot earlier in the backswing then I was and it seems to work. it took quite a bit of practise to get used to though.

Nick

 

[tugglesf239]

1st. I'm no expert. 2nd. I can only speak from experience.

I had an issue with flipping in that the club head was arriving at the ball before my hands, giving me quite a high shot and loosing me distance.

The simple fix with my pro was to cock the wrists a lot earlier in the backswing then I was and it seems to work. it took quite a bit of practise to get used to though.

Nick

This is similar to the advice given to me. Basically cock, keep the club head closed andthen get the club as vertical as possible using only my shoulders. this is what i was doing on the top picture. Agree though that it takes some getting used to.

pain in the arse if i am being honest

 

[garyinderry]

Looks like the swingyde would help here to achieve a better wrist cock. Like many people including myself who take the club way behind them, you cock the wrist back, not up.

http://www.americangolf.co.uk/balls...-249804.html?gclid=CN2x0KaqxNICFUWNGwodEewIoQ

 

[tugglesf239]

Looks like the swingyde would help here to achieve a better wrist cock. Like many people including myself who take the club way behind them, you cock the wrist back, not up.

http://www.americangolf.co.uk/balls...-249804.html?gclid=CN2x0KaqxNICFUWNGwodEewIoQ

Cheers Gary

I actually own one of these (well the cheapo Chinese £1.99 one) but truth be told i could not really use it properly. I could not get the hang of it.

Think my swings that screwed its beyond the help of most training aides apart from my DST (which i cant hit for toffee all of a sudden....)

Had a range session tonight and was appaling.

Going to book in a series of lessons in i think. They do work and i have had some real success recently but to much time between them does not help me.

I like to get my moneys worth from lessons. I practice what i have been told religiously and frequently after i have had one and its all good. Then ill have a session when nothing seems to work... ill then try to fix things and before you know it old habits creep back in. Winds me up something chronic.

I love practising and learning but i need more supervision i think. Practice makes permanent and all that...

 

[tugglesf239]

Been working really hard on this over the last few weeks and honestly i've had (what feels like) a real step change.

Been trying all sorts of manipulating my wrists etc trying to achieve a less inside takeaway and failing miserably. for years to be honest.

By some sort of sheer luck i decided to really slow my back swing to a deliberate crawl (always been super fast) trying to cock my wrist skywards and then hips fire so much easier then ever before. honestly, the results have been astonishing.

I can get to the top slowly and then unleash my hips and it just works so well.

Tempo i am working on and also the transition, however when i swing fast (not hard) my god the ball fly's and the contact feels like im really really compressing the ball properly.

Ive not filmed my swing yet but my swingaide shows a much more one piece up and down. The lines are much closer together.