Lining up (Aim) for a Draw/Fade
- Thread starter One Planer
- Start date
the_coach
Journeyman Pro
I disagree!! A first I think!
To me, a Slice is a large, possibly excessive Fade and a Hook is a large, possibly excessive Draw. The shapes (Hook/Draw or Slice/Fade) are the same and the attributes of the Club face and Path are the same - it's just a matter of scale whether it's the Draw/Fade or Hook/Slice.
It's quite acceptable to call a huge Right to Left shot that starts way right of the Target a Hook - around a tree for example.
What is required is a common, or at least agreed, set of terms. Those in the chart - from one of the many examples of 'New Ball Flight Laws' seem eminently acceptable and quite descriptive. That's not to say that a Pull Draw (or Push Fade) is a good or desirable shot, but it certainly describes it!
And it's a pretty standard set of descriptions. Even Jim McLean uses it - though, typically, he seems to claim he discovered/invented them!
Ok for you to disagree. But a shot that starts in direction to the right of the ball target line then doesn't just return to target but then goes past to the left by any kind of differing distances it is an overdraw, not a hook.
A draw can't start in any other direction except right of the ball target line, it doesn't start straight on line, it doesn't start left of the ball target line.
The opposite is true of a fade.
A ball the starts left of target line then curves to varying degrees to the left is a pull hook.
No such beast as a pull draw, or push fade like the unicorn they don't exist. To be any part of a pull it has to start left of the target line the swing path is out to in has to be just in the case of a pull hook there's some kind of closed face at collision, to be a draw the ball has to start right the swing path has to be some degrees in to out the face open to target line but closed to path, you can't hit a hook with those attributes to path & face angle.
A fade/draw is a very specific controlled curvature with very defined club face angles & swing paths, with a very tightly defined ratio one to the other, face angle to path. There is a very defined way of consistently producing either shape as the empirical launch monitor data has proven.
Foxholer
Blackballed
An in-to-out (I2O) swing can produce a pull as well - as long as the face is 'pointing' left of the Target. It is, of course, going to produce a larger Draw than if the swing was O2I, so there is more likelihood of a Hook - depending on the actual numbers involved, but these may actually be small/marginal.
And it's also important to define what 'Target' means - whether it's where you want the ball to end up (the pin for example) or where you set your alignment up in order to produce the desired shape - the 'aiming target'. In fact, it matters not what you call any particular shot, as long as there is definition/agreement about what they are. The terms Push and Pull do have slightly unfortunate implications that it is primarily the action of the swing that is causing them to by pushed or pulled.
Last edited:
Foxholer
Blackballed
To add to my above post....
This article probably has (one of) the best overall info on the issues.
http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws
Note the comment about Nicklaus and Trevino being Push Faders. That demonstrates the difference between the 2 'Targets'. In the Trevino case mentioned, his 'aiming target' is (say) 20* left of his real target - the pin - and he swings with clubface open (say) 10* and (say) 5* in-to-out. The ball starts off 10* right of his aiming target (still 10* left of his real one) and fades the rest of that to his real target - the pin. (Oh and he hopped around quite a bit too!). Nicklaus was the same, but the numbers were considerably smaller!
The difference between a Push-Fade and a Pull-Fade is whether the Club-face is Open or Closed to the aiming target. If Open, then an in-to-out swing can/should be made (but by not more than the face is open); If closed, then an Out-to-in must be made!
And Sean Foley certainly had Tiger hitting a Push-Fade!
This article probably has (one of) the best overall info on the issues.
http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws
Note the comment about Nicklaus and Trevino being Push Faders. That demonstrates the difference between the 2 'Targets'. In the Trevino case mentioned, his 'aiming target' is (say) 20* left of his real target - the pin - and he swings with clubface open (say) 10* and (say) 5* in-to-out. The ball starts off 10* right of his aiming target (still 10* left of his real one) and fades the rest of that to his real target - the pin. (Oh and he hopped around quite a bit too!
). Nicklaus was the same, but the numbers were considerably smaller! The difference between a Push-Fade and a Pull-Fade is whether the Club-face is Open or Closed to the aiming target. If Open, then an in-to-out swing can/should be made (but by not more than the face is open); If closed, then an Out-to-in must be made!
And Sean Foley certainly had Tiger hitting a Push-Fade!
Last edited:
the_coach
Journeyman Pro
To add to my above post....
This article probably has (one of) the best overall info on the issues.
http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws
Note the comment about Nicklaus and Trevino being Push Faders. That demonstrates the difference between the 2 'Targets'. In the Trevino case mentioned, his 'aiming target' is (say) 20* left of his real target - the pin - and he swings with clubface open (say) 10* and (say) 5* in-to-out. The ball starts off 10* right of his aiming target (still 10* left of his real one) and fades the rest of that to his real target - the pin. (Oh and he hopped around quite a bit too!
The difference between a Push-Fade and a Pull-Fade is whether the Club-face is Open or Closed to the aiming target. If Open, then an in-to-out swing can/should be made (but by not more than the face is open); If closed, then an Out-to-in must be made!
And Sean Foley certainly had Tiger hitting a Push-Fade!
As before, a fade has to start left of target & fade back to target, a fade has to be hit with a closed to target line face but open to the path. Both Trevino & Nicklaus would have had to start their ball flight to the left of their intended target.
Tiger was swinging left, club face closed to target line, open to swing path, ball starting left of end target line, he was hitting fades if he got it down correctly, hitting slices or pulls if he got it wrong.
A pull has to start left of target, a draw has to start right of target, the dichotomy in a "pull draw" fairly plain to see, opposite but the same is found in that a push has to start right of the target, a fade has to start left of the target.
ScienceBoy
Money List Winner
If you are doing it properly you should be aiming AT your target and the ball sets off right and returns to target.
If you have to aim right to compensate then something is wrong.
If you have to aim right to compensate then something is wrong.
One Planer
Global Moderator
Out of curiosity, did you watch the videos Coach posted?
Foxholer
Blackballed
It would appear that we simply have a different definition of 'target'!
Yours appears to be the place where the player wants the ball to end up.
Mine - and I believe the one in the chart/description - is the point at which the body is aligned - the reference point or 'aiming target', where a straight/straight swing would send the ball (Trevino's 20* Left point in the article)
Odvan
Journeyman Pro
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
I would still be chopping and praying for a fade now if it wasn't for your genius ! :whoo:
