Leaf/branch falling off tree/bush during practice swing.

[Bobmysterkaymer]

A playing partner swung in over hanging trees and I commented to our other playing partner he was lucky not to knock off a leaf/branch and incur a 2 shot penalty. He said why? As it would be difficult to determine if one leaf had improved his swing line! (he is the handicap chairman so I thought mmmmmmm is this true?) I looked on the r & a app on my phone and couldnt find anything concrete! Anyone know an exact ruling here?

 

[Matty]

Rule 13-2 Decision 22:

Q:
A player's ball lies near a tree or bush. The player takes a practice swing near his ball and knocks down leaves in the area of his intended swing. Is this a breach of Rule 13-2?

A:
The answer depends on whether the area of the intended swing is improved. In some cases, the knocking down of a number of leaves would not improve the area of the intended swing as the player still has to swing through a number of remaining leaves when making his stroke. In such circumstances, there would be no breach of the Rules. In other cases, the knocking down of one leaf might improve the area of the intended swing, in which case there would be a breach of Rule 13-2.
If a player has improved the area of his intended swing by knocking down a leaf or a number of leaves, he cannot avoid penalty under Rule 13-2 by subsequently changing the area of his swing when he actually makes the stroke.

 

[Khamelion]

A guess it alos depends on where you are playing. One leaf in this country could be an oak, chestnut or some other deciduous tree, for which a single leaf off one may not matter.

But if you are playing in warmer climes where maybe a leaf is off a palm tree, or banana plant then one leaf could be construed as gaining an advantage.

Cheers
Dave

 

[upsidedown]

I was playing with a well known but not liked on here BBC on course commentator and we were playing matchplay receiving 12 shots. I had a 5 to her 4 on SI 8 and said that's a half then, to which she replied "no your hole I knocked off a leaf in my practice swing"

 

[0]

I was playing with a well known but not liked on here BBC on course commentator and we were playing matchplay receiving 12 shots. I had a 5 to her 4 on SI 8 and said that's a half then, to which she replied "no your hole I knocked off a leaf in my practice swing"

Interesting, wonder why she didn't say at the time and waited until the hole was over before declaring breaching a rule? Very honest though which is commendable.

 

[USER1999]

Then she is an idiot.

 

[upsidedown]

I was playing with a well known but not liked on here BBC on course commentator and we were playing matchplay receiving 12 shots. I had a 5 to her 4 on SI 8 and said that's a half then, to which she replied "no your hole I knocked off a leaf in my practice swing"

Interesting, wonder why she didn't say at the time and waited until the hole was over before declaring breaching a rule? Very honest though which is commendable.

As the stakes were pretty high, who was going to cook supper, she waited till I'd putted as we were opposite side of fairway for approach shots. I'd missed a 10 footer which I thought was for the win and she conceded the 2 footer I'd left. She's got a great sense of humour

 

[upsidedown]

Then she is an idiot.

So you cheat then?

 

[chrisd]

So you cheat then?

Woooo up there .. thats just a bit strong. The knocking off of a leaf may not have been a penalty as we have determined already. Your opponent may well have confessed to a crime she didn't commit - only she knows, and good for her if she knew the rule and felt she had broken it but if she didn't break the rule but conceded the hole then, she was, not an idiot, but maybe daft!



Chris

 

[upsidedown]

So you cheat then?

Woooo up there .. thats just a bit strong. The knocking off of a leaf may not have been a penalty as we have determined already. Your opponent may well have confessed to a crime she didn't commit - only she knows, and good for her if she knew the rule and felt she had broken it but if she didn't break the rule but conceded the hole then, she was, not an idiot, but maybe daft!



Chris

Fair comment

 

[Sam]

The answer depends on whether the area of the intended swing is improved. In some cases, the knocking down of a number of leaves would not improve the area of the intended swing as the player still has to swing through a number of remaining leaves when making his stroke.

So I've knocked down 3 leaves but there are 4 remaining and that's OK even though it is harder to swing through 7 leaves rather than 4 - barmy!!

 

[Bobmysterkaymer]

I'm still non the wiser? Surely if there are still leaves there in your actual swing then there is no problem. But does that mean you have to wait until you've taken your actual swing before you can call a penalty on yourself?

 

[MashieNiblick]

The answer depends on whether the area of the intended swing is improved. In some cases, the knocking down of a number of leaves would not improve the area of the intended swing as the player still has to swing through a number of remaining leaves when making his stroke.

So I've knocked down 3 leaves but there are 4 remaining and that's OK even though it is harder to swing through 7 leaves rather than 4 - barmy!!

The decision quoted (13-2/22 Knocking Down Leaves with Practice Swing) goes on to say:

"In other cases, the knocking down of one leaf might improve the area of the intended swing, in which case there would be a breach of Rule 13-2."

So if it is easier to swing through 4 leaves than 7 the area of your swing has been improved and the penalty applies. If it was 3 out of 300 then maybe no penalty.

I think you have to make the decision before playing as Decision 13-2/22 also says

"If a player has improved the area of his intended swing by knocking down a leaf or a number of leaves, he cannot avoid penalty under Rule 13-2 by subsequently changing the area of his swing when he actually makes the stroke."

There isn't a definitive answer or formula as to how many leaves or how you decide, you have to assess each situation. If in doubt, in equity, take the penalty, which I guess is what upsidedown's opponent did.

The fact that Rule 13-2 has 37 decisions associated with it suggests it isn't always an easy rule to interpret.

 

[Region3]

I reckon if I had a 1/2" thick branch in my way halfway on my backswing I could knock every single leaf off it and it still wouldn't have improved my area of intended swing because the branch would still be there.

 

[viscount17]

The fact that Rule 13-2 has 37 decisions associated with it suggests it isn't always an easy rule to interpret.

and the fact that it calls for a subjective assessment is what makes it a bad rule. you could get four different opinions and it's no use playing a second and leaving it to the committee as how would they know. rules should be hard and fast - if you do this then.

 

[palindromicbob]

If I though I was going to have to take a penalty for knocking a few little leaves of a branch I'd either break the f-ing thing and make the 2 strokes worthwhile or declare unplayable and move the ball under penalty of 1 stroke.

A little sense is needed when applying this rule.

Removing a few leaves when a branch is actually the impedance the it isn't really improving the area of swing. Knocking off one leaf at the end of a branch when this was the only thing the club came in contact with would be as it removed a possible distraction.

This rule makes my brain hurt.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Interesting comments. I agree that the rule is too subjective but we do need a rule to cover the situation. Hard to think what to change to improve it. I do wonder at the logic of imposing the penalty even if you change the area of your swing so that in the event it isn't actually improved. I suppose that stops disputes about whether a player did actually change their swing.

 

[bobmac]

Watch the guys on tour. They take so much care not to disturb anything. Safest way. No leaf, no penalty

 

[bladeplayer]

Watch the guys on tour. They take so much care not to disturb anything. Safest way. No leaf, no penalty

surely then it would be better for the rule to state if you disturb leaf/ leaves etc its a penalty .. full stop .. saves speculation & doubt .. no??

 

[palindromicbob]

another safe way is to forget the practice swing and just go for it.