Rules Disagreement

[Region3]

Playing in a 4BBB strokeplay on Saturday, my partner drove in amongst smallish silver birch trees (not staked).

Whilst taking a practice swing, he hit a branch of a tree about 3/4 through his follow through, and a small leaf dropped off it.

Our playing partners said it was a 2 stroke penalty because he broke something that was fixed and growing.
I argued that it made no improvement to his stance, line of play, or intended swing because the branch that the leaf fell off was still there.

Who was right?

 

[Region3]

P.S. It made no difference in the end because we used my score on the hole even if it wasn't a penalty.

 

[edgey]

Was it his practice swing or actual swing when he broke the branch?

Edgey

 

[Owen_Thomas_14]

Im sure it is a 2 stroke penalty. You can only get away with it if your intending to hit the ball

 

[bobmac]

No penalty, unless his line of swing was improved by dislodging the leaf

 

[golfstick]

penalty if the guy had addressed the ball and practiced on the line he intends to swing through as this would be deemed as improving his swing path surely.

If he was away from the ball this shouldnt even be an issue an no penALTY.

I rekon he was stood over the ball which is why your partner prompted a penalty shot upon him

 

[Redwood]

Doesn't matter what he dislodges, if he was addressing the ball and he dislodged the leaf and didn't hit the ball in the same swing, 2 shot penalty.

 

[walesandproud]

Sorry to wreck the myth that if you make a leaf drop in practise this is a penalty. The rule is all about improving your lie. This is subgective of course, but here is the decision covering this.
13-2/22 Knocking Down Leaves with Practice Swing
Q. A player's ball lies near a tree or bush. The player takes a practice swing near his ball and knocks down leaves in the area of his intended swing. Is this a breach of Rule 13-2?
A. The answer depends on whether the area of the intended swing is improved. In some cases, the knocking down of a number of leaves would not improve the area of the intended swing as the player still has to swing through a number of remaining leaves when making his stroke. In such circumstances, there would be no breach of the Rules. In other cases, the knocking down of one leaf might improve the area of the intended swing, in which case there would be a breach of Rule 13-2.
If a player has improved the area of his intended swing by knocking down a leaf or a number of leaves, he cannot avoid penalty under Rule 13-2 by subsequently changing the area of his swing when he actually makes the stroke.

 

[Redwood]

Once again, subjective rules that do nothing to clear up the situation.

 

[walesandproud]

Im not dissagreeing with you redwood, but they are the rules. If you improve your lie it is a penalty if you dont improve you lie its not. In reality its not difficult to determine that. If you have a free swing swing after your practise then you have clearly improved your lie. If your a still hitting through a load of leaves you have not.
This is just one of the misconceptions that we all play under

 

[edgey]

Objectively

If it was his practice swing 2 stroke penalty (probably)

If it was his actual swing no penalty

Edgey

 

[bobmac]

Sorry guys.
13-2/22
"The answer depends on whether the area of the intended swing is improved. In some cases, the knocking down of a number of leaves would not improve the area of the intended swing as the player still has to swing through a number of remaining leaves when making his stroke. In such circumstances, there would be no breach of the Rules. In other cases, the knocking down of one leaf might improve the area of the intended swing, in which case there would be a breach of Rule 13-2."

 

[walesandproud]

Bobmac
They didnt listen to me when I stated that. I hope they will now, you are telling them as well.
Sometimes people hear rules and carry on beleiving they are fact without checking

 

[bobmac]

Surely the whole point of this is that the original question has been answered and everyone who has read the ruling will now not get called incorrectly.
Whether you agree with the rule or not, that's the rule.

 

[Redwood]

Im not dissagreeing with you redwood, but they are the rules.

I was getting at you, just the R&A, and I still think that the rule is open to debate and interpretation.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

So what are we actualy saying then. As it was a practice swing and only one leaf thereby leaving plenty of others in the way of the intended stroke then he wasn't getting any advantage and so no penalty?

That is how I read the OP but probably got the wrong idea again.

 

[bobmac]

It's common sense really.
If you gain an advantage ie, you've cleared your swing path then penalty.
If you knock one leaf out of 50 and you still cant swing then no advantage gained, no penalty.

 

[Fyldewhite]

Im not dissagreeing with you redwood, but they are the rules.

I was getting at you, just the R&A, and I still think that the rule is open to debate and interpretation.

Sometimes rules have to be subjective to allow common sense to prevail. We estimate the nearest point of relief or where to go back to when you lose a ball etc. So long as it's reasonable and you are clearly not taking advantage everyone just gets on with it without resorting to tape measures.

 

[AuburnWarrior]

It's common sense really.
If you gain an advantage ie, you've cleared your swing path then penalty.
If you knock one leaf out of 50 and you still cant swing then no advantage gained, no penalty.

I can see some brawls in the rough with a non-specific rule like this!

 

[Region3]

I don't even see how it could be argued over, but I was the only one involved in the conversation that thought it was no penalty.

The leaf was the size of a 10p piece. The leaf wasn't impeding his swing in the first place, the branch that the leaf was on was impeding his follow through.

Even if all the leaves fell off, his swing would not be any easier because the branch was still there.

The worrying thing is that a committee member and assistant pro were amongst those arguing against me.