Lance Armstrong

[Tashyboy]

Handicapping was introduced into golf to equalise odds to facilitate betting. I don't know of a better system to do this.

If you want the monthly medal to be a fair bet then the handicap system is very good. If you want the monthly medal to be a competition then the system is unfair. A better format for competition has been used throughout human history.

A competition is only fair, or has meaning as a competition, if it is on a level playing field. Handicapping deliberately unlevels the playing field to equalise odds.

If that was the case then you would only have one horse run the Derby, grand national and Skegness donkey Derby, and all bookies would go bust after twenty minutes. Every club would only have half a dozen members because everyone would be fed up of getting thumped every week and losing 50p every time they played in a fiddle.
Na ah stick with the handicap system it has its small problems but it's far better than plan B.

 

[Pro Zach]

So, using my club as an example (Club championship) i can tell you this years winner from 5 blokes, why would the rest of us enter, that's why we use handicaps for other comps, to make it competetive for all.
We all strive for a lower handicap and dream of scratch.

I believe Sophocles answered this question a couple of thousand years ago when he wrote “it is better to lose with honour than win by cheating”
Winning a competition is not important. One of the reasons you think it is because the handicap system equalises odds to make it a bet. Winning a bet is more important because there is no hierarchy of first to last. There is a winner and the rest are all losers.

There are plenty of non handicapped sports that show that winning is not important to people. If you look at a marathon you will see hundreds of people competing but only an elite few have a chance of winning.

If you ran your club champs as a scratch comp it is true that many people wouldn't enter. This is because the handicap system has blinded them to the meaning and enjoyment we get from competition. The system has allowed them to cheat and they will now feel it is unfair if they can't.

If golf had never had a handicap system golfers would not be making the arguments they make. People would still start playing golf and enter competitions in the same way as they do in non handicapped sports. The difference is they would be enjoying it more.

A newcomer to the game would enter competitions when he felt he had the ability to compete with the worst players. Probably his goal in his first comp would be to not finish last. If he achieves this he will be delighted if he doesn't he will be disappointed. He will not be disappointed about not winning because that would be a ridiculous goal for a newcomer.

At no point will he think or argue that he should have an equal chance of winning against someone who has worked hard for 20 years and has more ability than him. If he did suggest it was unfair that the same scratch golfer won all the comps he would be given a slap and told to show some respect for the winners hard work and skill. If someone suggested he should knock off 28 shots so he had a chance of winning he would look at them like they were an idiot. Why would he want to cheat to win?

He would keep entering comps and compare himself to people of similar ability. He will be thrilled or disappointed depending on were he finishes on the leader board compared to were he thinks is capable of finishing. He will congratulate the winner even if it is the same bloke every week.

Now it does seem strange that you can turn this sensible, honourable, person into a delusional cheat just by introducing him to a handicap system – but it seems you can.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Sorry but dont think its right to be calling people who use a HC system as cheats.

 

[Pro Zach]

Your use of slavery to back up your argument against a system for pithy golf tournaments really is disingenuous and distasteful. Nobody gets hurt or is oppressed at a monthly medal. Have a word with yourself.

I didn't use it for the argument you suggest. I used it as an argument against using rules as a moral compass.

 

[freddielong]

Sorry but dont think its right to be calling people who use a HC system as cheats.

Cheating is cheating

 

[HomerJSimpson]

So, using my club as an example (Club championship) i can tell you this years winner from 5 blokes, why would the rest of us enter, that's why we use handicaps for other comps, to make it competetive for all.
We all strive for a lower handicap and dream of scratch.

Like many clubs we have a scratch prize (club champion) and it's normally between half a dozen but we run a handicap event at the same time so everyone has something to aim for with it's own separate trophy and honour board. With a halfway cut after round one there's always a fight to avoid the axe and the stick that come with an MC. That's why with have handicaps. It gives everyone an equal playing field

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Cheating is cheating

That maybe correct but players using a HC system in golf is not cheating

 

[Pro Zach]

If that was the case then you would only have one horse run the Derby, grand national and Skegness donkey Derby, and all bookies would go bust after twenty minutes. Every club would only have half a dozen members because everyone would be fed up of getting thumped every week and losing 50p every time they played in a fiddle.
Na ah stick with the handicap system it has its small problems but it's far better than plan B.

Handicapping is used in horse racing to equalise odds to facilitate betting. It is so humans can gamble. It is not there because horses refuse to compete if they don't have an equal chance of winning.

If what you say about club golf is true, can you explain why marathons don't only have half a dozen entrants?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Because of lot of people enter marathons for more than just to compete

If HC system was removed from golf then the numbers would just disappear

Golf is great in that it allows a level playing field meaning that anyone can one on any given day

it allows people of all ages and sex to compete all their life and its great

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I believe Sophocles answered this question a couple of thousand years ago when he wrote “it is better to lose with honour than win by cheating”
Winning a competition is not important. One of the reasons you think it is because the handicap system equalises odds to make it a bet. Winning a bet is more important because there is no hierarchy of first to last. There is a winner and the rest are all losers.

There are plenty of non handicapped sports that show that winning is not important to people. If you look at a marathon you will see hundreds of people competing but only an elite few have a chance of winning.

If you ran your club champs as a scratch comp it is true that many people wouldn't enter. This is because the handicap system has blinded them to the meaning and enjoyment we get from competition. The system has allowed them to cheat and they will now feel it is unfair if they can't.

If golf had never had a handicap system golfers would not be making the arguments they make. People would still start playing golf and enter competitions in the same way as they do in non handicapped sports. The difference is they would be enjoying it more.

A newcomer to the game would enter competitions when he felt he had the ability to compete with the worst players. Probably his goal in his first comp would be to not finish last. If he achieves this he will be delighted if he doesn't he will be disappointed. He will not be disappointed about not winning because that would be a ridiculous goal for a newcomer.

At no point will he think or argue that he should have an equal chance of winning against someone who has worked hard for 20 years and has more ability than him. If he did suggest it was unfair that the same scratch golfer won all the comps he would be given a slap and told to show some respect for the winners hard work and skill. If someone suggested he should knock off 28 shots so he had a chance of winning he would look at them like they were an idiot. Why would he want to cheat to win?

He would keep entering comps and compare himself to people of similar ability. He will be thrilled or disappointed depending on were he finishes on the leader board compared to were he thinks is capable of finishing. He will congratulate the winner even if it is the same bloke every week.

Now it does seem strange that you can turn this sensible, honourable, person into a delusional cheat just by introducing him to a handicap system – but it seems you can.

Genuinely don't know if this a wind up?
So everyone off scratch are we giving everyone identical clubs, balls, time to practise?
Playing would be very mechanical and I assume you are a low single figure or scratch golfer, because if I felt as strongly about it as yourself, I'd give up.
Calling it cheating is wrong, Governing bodies make rules and we play to them, I think your issue is with them,

 

[Imurg]

Handicapping is used in horse racing to equalise odds to facilitate betting. It is so humans can gamble. It is not there because horses refuse to compete if they don't have an equal chance of winning.

If what you say about club golf is true, can you explain why marathons don't only have half a dozen entrants?

Because they're Golf Clubs not running races.
Comparing completely different things is pointless.

You come on every few months with this garbage and then go away again..
The Handicap system ain't going anywhere - get used to it!
If you don't want to use handicaps then play off Scratch and enjoy yourself.

 

[Pro Zach]

That maybe correct but players using a HC system in golf is not cheating

I think they are cheating and it is difficult to argue that without saying it. But I am always open to a better way.

So, a player knowingly and deliberately doesn't count shots that they actually took for the sole purpose of increasing their chance of winning.......what would you call it?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Like many clubs we have a scratch prize (club champion) and it's normally between half a dozen but we run a handicap event at the same time so everyone has something to aim for with it's own separate trophy and honour board. With a halfway cut after round one there's always a fight to avoid the axe and the stick that come with an MC. That's why with have handicaps. It gives everyone an equal playing field

That's what we do, was simplifying for postings sake😃

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I think they are cheating and it is difficult to argue that without saying it. But I am always open to a better way.

So, a player knowingly and deliberately doesn't count shots that they actually took for the sole purpose of increasing their chance of winning.......what would you call it?

Cheating is classed as breaking the rules set out by the governing body of the game of golf

By a player using a HC - how is that breaking any rules ?

Players not counting shots is cheating but thats nothing to do with the HC system

 

[Imurg]

I think they are cheating and it is difficult to argue that without saying it. But I am always open to a better way.

So, a player knowingly and deliberately doesn't count shots that they actually took for the sole purpose of increasing their chance of winning.......what would you call it?

It is impossible to cheat if what you are doing is within the bounds of the rules of whatever you are doing.
If the Rules of Golf said I was allowed to kick your ball into every ditch we came to I would not be cheating if I did it.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

If the Rules of Golf said I was allowed to kick your ball into every ditch we came to I would not be cheating if I did it.

I can tell you are tempted

 

[Imurg]

I can tell you are tempted

Well, I do play to the rules......

 

[Tiger man]

I believe Sophocles answered this question a couple of thousand years ago when he wrote “it is better to lose with honour than win by cheating”
Winning a competition is not important. One of the reasons you think it is because the handicap system equalises odds to make it a bet. Winning a bet is more important because there is no hierarchy of first to last. There is a winner and the rest are all losers.

There are plenty of non handicapped sports that show that winning is not important to people. If you look at a marathon you will see hundreds of people competing but only an elite few have a chance of winning.

If you ran your club champs as a scratch comp it is true that many people wouldn't enter. This is because the handicap system has blinded them to the meaning and enjoyment we get from competition. The system has allowed them to cheat and they will now feel it is unfair if they can't.

If golf had never had a handicap system golfers would not be making the arguments they make. People would still start playing golf and enter competitions in the same way as they do in non handicapped sports. The difference is they would be enjoying it more.

A newcomer to the game would enter competitions when he felt he had the ability to compete with the worst players. Probably his goal in his first comp would be to not finish last. If he achieves this he will be delighted if he doesn't he will be disappointed. He will not be disappointed about not winning because that would be a ridiculous goal for a newcomer.

At no point will he think or argue that he should have an equal chance of winning against someone who has worked hard for 20 years and has more ability than him. If he did suggest it was unfair that the same scratch golfer won all the comps he would be given a slap and told to show some respect for the winners hard work and skill. If someone suggested he should knock off 28 shots so he had a chance of winning he would look at them like they were an idiot. Why would he want to cheat to win?

He would keep entering comps and compare himself to people of similar ability. He will be thrilled or disappointed depending on were he finishes on the leader board compared to were he thinks is capable of finishing. He will congratulate the winner even if it is the same bloke every week.

Now it does seem strange that you can turn this sensible, honourable, person into a delusional cheat just by introducing him to a handicap system – but it seems you can.

Wow, someone does not like losing his 50p every week.
The main reason we play this game is enjoyment I believe? And giving a hacker the same chance as a seasoned player adds to it this, and keeps the better players sharp as they know they have to play to the best of their own ability to win.

 

[chrisd]

H

...what would you call it?

mmmmmmmmmmm how about........... GOLF!


I've read some utter garbage on the forum over the years but your arguments about handicapping are absolute nonsense!

 

[Tiger man]

Imagine how exciting the club house would be every weekend with the same 2 guys talking about how they won. . . Again, and the mere mortals getting excited over who finished 30th this weekend! That would do wonders for dwindling golf numbers:thup: everyone has their good and bad rounds and it's the excitement of a good round that keeps you coming back with the added bonus of a few free rounds in the bar if ya win. Take that away and the soul would well and truly disappear from every golf club. But at least Sophocles would be happy:lol: