I just don't believe a single word he's said... I wouldn't want him anywhere near a comp I was playing in.
Lance Armstrong
- Thread starter rksquire
- Start date
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Are you serious?
Comparing Armstrong to footballers?..Ok, give us a like for like comparison?
Doping, blood transfusions, controlling of fellow teamates etc...Sounds a right good guy to have a knock with.
The guy has no integrity or shame.What he has done, and those like him, just gives the sport a sullied reputation, and for all those that do it the right way, the sport will never get recognised as being clean....
I guess if you did go out with him in a fourball, i guess you would have to follow to the toilet, and check the contents of his bag..
Whoa am I missing something, did you finish 118th in the TDF as the first clean rider over the line?
He's a drug cheat. He's not the first he wont be the last. (I wish there were none) Is it perhaps that he was one of the 'best' cheats (not that there's any glory in that) Is it because he duped the fans for so long that elevates him in condemnation above the others?
Was the TDF/cycling clean before Armstrong? No other doping scandals?
How is diving for the winning penalty in major football any better or a lesser crime (you must agree they also have no integrity or shame)
Seems like its too easy to compartmentalize types of cheating to suit.
colint
Tour Rookie
Armstrong was the best cheat in an era when probably the top 30 riders were all cheating. He's vilified for denying it for so long, what did you expect him to do ? wink at the camera when he denied it ? I'm a big David Millar fan but the likes of him, Tyler Hamilton etc are held up as anti doping heroes because they came clean and wrote a book about it, earning themselves a small fortune in the process. Neither of them did this out of the goodness of their heart, David Millar was dragged out of a restaurant in France by the police and charged with sporting fraud, he didn't wake up one morning and decide to come clean. He reinvented himself as an anti doping campaigner to resurrect his career as he lost everything during his ban. I rode with him a for a few miles while he was banned and he was sleeping in mates house as he had nowhere else to go.
Someone else mentioned Stephen Roache, Roache was linked to doping as well. A test done restrospectively found EPO in his blood sample from (I think) early 2000's. He's also the only rider to win the triple crown other than Eddy Merckx, and as great a rider as Merckx was, he was also caught doping. A famous saying in cycling is that you don't win the tour de france on bread and water. Doping has been part of the sport for ever, it just became more systematic and professional during the armstrong era. If EPO had been available in the 60's or 70's, it would have been someone else held up as the villain.
Personally, as guilty as he is, I think he's been made a scapegoat for the whole sport. Other than Wiggins, I think theres only been 1 TDF winner not linked to doping in something like the last 25 years.
I'd play a round with Armstrong and trust him more than any footballer
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
A very well argued post there.
TheJezster
Tour Rookie
I think this in an excellent post. I was a massive Armstrong fan, like many others on here and I too was sure he was innocent, so to find out he was in fact guilty was a huge disappointment. That being said, why would that make him a cheat at golf? It wouldn't as far as I am concerned and would happily play with him. I wouldn't even give him cheating a second thought.
Piece
Tour Winner
Same here, word for word.
sawtooth
Tour Winner
5 times a week? I would expect to get down to 5-6
AmandaJR
Money List Winner
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
If we are comparing the TDF and controlling his team and everything he did, To playing a round of golf with him. It's a bit like asking if you'd eat sprouts coz you like ice cream.
you complain as a team mate coz Lance is cheating and your out of a job.
lance is cheating at golf playing in a fourball with you and he is likely to end up with a club round his ear hole.
i have said this before and I will say it again. Lance was a prize pillock for doing what he did, but what about the second guy that says yeah that's a good idea. What was the ramifications for others involved in this cheating.
re playing with Lance, it will never happen, but I still don't know. When I started playing again, I ended up in a society do at Forest pines and was asked to keep an eye on "Leather wedge Joey". I did not have a clue what they were on about. Having played two holes I worked it out. It took a bit longer to realise what leather wedge meant.
point is we have all played with "known cheats".
Another point is, if you did play with him. What would the topic of conversation be.😳
you complain as a team mate coz Lance is cheating and your out of a job.
lance is cheating at golf playing in a fourball with you and he is likely to end up with a club round his ear hole.
i have said this before and I will say it again. Lance was a prize pillock for doing what he did, but what about the second guy that says yeah that's a good idea. What was the ramifications for others involved in this cheating.
re playing with Lance, it will never happen, but I still don't know. When I started playing again, I ended up in a society do at Forest pines and was asked to keep an eye on "Leather wedge Joey". I did not have a clue what they were on about. Having played two holes I worked it out. It took a bit longer to realise what leather wedge meant.
point is we have all played with "known cheats".
Another point is, if you did play with him. What would the topic of conversation be.😳
Blue in Munich
Crocked Professional Yeti Impersonator
Nobody's denying that there were other cheats at the time, and nobody's claiming that the sport is clean now.
He's vilified as far as I am concerned not so much for denying it for so long, but for the lengths he went to in order to present himself as clean. The manipulation of team mates, the allegations against the French authorities that they were conducting a totally unjustified campaign against him and the self-promotion of himself as clean and a cut above the rest of his fellow competitors via the books (that made him a small fortune in the process) and the LiveStrong campaign show a level of cynicism and contempt towards his fans, the authorities and the sport in general that beggars belief.
Yes, footballers cheat when an opportunity presents itself during a game. But they don't go to the lengths that Armstrong did to engineer & control the cheating, nor to the lengths that he did to cover it up. Yes, a cheat is a cheat, just as a thief is a thief, but to compare Armstrong to footballers is to compare a shoplifter with the Great Train Robbery or a pickpocket to the Brinks Mat job.
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
Another excellent post. Christ, this tread is in danger of having well argued posts based on intelligent debate instead of half baked prejudices and hearsay. Not sure I can cope with that.
colint
Tour Rookie
I don't think he showed contempt for the authorities because I'm sure they knew he was doping. An English speaking tdf champion was a licence to print money for many at the top of the sport, they were happy to ride the gravy train while it lasted
Blue in Munich
Crocked Professional Yeti Impersonator
So if I'm reading this right, you're saying that those at the top of the sport's administration effectively colluded, either actively or passively, with the USPS team to keep Armstrong at the top of the sport and confound the French police in the process in order to print money, or that potentially the French police were in on it as well? How does that sit with Armstrong's claims in his that the French authorities had it in for him because the cancer drugs that saved him were on the banned list; or was the first book a cynical smoke and mirrors job to throw us all off the scent whilst he was in bed with the authorities?
colint
Tour Rookie
There's evidence that the uci, governing body of cycling, colluded with Armstrong. Not the french police.
SaintHacker
Journeyman Pro
There is another angle to look at this from, and I'm not saying its one I agree with. But during his time the sport was rife with drug taking. every rival he beat was done for positive tests at some point. Zulle, Pantani, Ullrich, they were all at it, so it could be argues that whilst anyone doing it was cheating, they were all just truing to keep up with each other! The other thing particular to Armstrong, is that due to his success his Foundation has raised millions upon millions of dollars for cancer research and support. Had he not won so much, however tainted those wins now are, would that still be the case? I'm not so sure, so maybe at least something good has come out all of it.
To get the thread back on track, as a self confessed former fan of Armstrong, and a continuing fan of cycling, I would love to play a round with him, although some of the conversation could become quite uncomfortable and I'm not sure we'd still be on speaking terms by the 18th!
To get the thread back on track, as a self confessed former fan of Armstrong, and a continuing fan of cycling, I would love to play a round with him, although some of the conversation could become quite uncomfortable and I'm not sure we'd still be on speaking terms by the 18th!
Sweep
Journeyman Pro
What I find very interesting from this thread is that cheating at most "sports" is almost now perfectly acceptable but is an absolute disgrace in golf. Even the man who will probably go down as the greatest cheater of all time says so.
Every time I watch football, I see players diving and commentators applauding them for it. When a player tries to stay on his feet, everyone says he should have gone down. Football now has become more about winning an Oscar than winning the Champions League. The players try to con the ref every single minute of the game and then we vilify him when "he has had a bad game".
Cycling, as a sport is just simply a disgrace and Armstrong and others put in there. The governing bodies of these "sports" are equally to blame. They are presiding over and condoning the self distructionof the sport they are supposed to foster to the point of dereliction of duty. Just look at FIFA. And it's all because of money. And all the while people like Armstrong are taking the adulation and fame, because in the end the only people they are conning is US.
Those that say they would be happy to play with Armstrong should probably question why they would play with him, but very likely refuse to play with someone who has been found cheating at golf.
The truth is that these other sports aren't sports at all. They are just games. Sure, they take athletic ability and great skill to perform, but a sport involves sportsmanship and golf, to it's eternal credit, is the shining beacon of sportsmanship.
Every time I watch football, I see players diving and commentators applauding them for it. When a player tries to stay on his feet, everyone says he should have gone down. Football now has become more about winning an Oscar than winning the Champions League. The players try to con the ref every single minute of the game and then we vilify him when "he has had a bad game".
Cycling, as a sport is just simply a disgrace and Armstrong and others put in there. The governing bodies of these "sports" are equally to blame. They are presiding over and condoning the self distructionof the sport they are supposed to foster to the point of dereliction of duty. Just look at FIFA. And it's all because of money. And all the while people like Armstrong are taking the adulation and fame, because in the end the only people they are conning is US.
Those that say they would be happy to play with Armstrong should probably question why they would play with him, but very likely refuse to play with someone who has been found cheating at golf.
The truth is that these other sports aren't sports at all. They are just games. Sure, they take athletic ability and great skill to perform, but a sport involves sportsmanship and golf, to it's eternal credit, is the shining beacon of sportsmanship.
colint
Tour Rookie
Maybe it's because golf relies so much on honesty ? When your playing partner is in the woods you just rely on him to play the ball as it lies, imagine if football was played in a separate field from the referee, if a player said he'd been fouled who'd believe him ?
As for the governing bodies of sports, cycling has at least tried to do something to clean itself up but others just aren;t interested. There was a famous case called Operation Puerto a few years ago where a doctor was raided in Spain (spain is notoriously lax on doping) and the police found evidence of wide scale blood doping / transfusions. Every cyclist on the doctors list was investigated and many where banned. Over half the sportsmen using the doctors where from tennis, football and athletics. Not one person from theses sports was banned. There was evidence linking a top italian football team to the doctor, this team coincidentally scored more goals in the last 10 minutes of matches than any other in europe, the players where somehow fitter. Despite the fact that the club where making cash payments to the doctor in question, fifa concluded there was nothing suspicious. Arsene Wenger has also said that when he buys a player from europe, he often can't play them for weeks until their blood levels return to normal. Doping is rife in all top sport, but theres too much money involved and too many people getting rich for it to ever be dealt with properly.
As for the governing bodies of sports, cycling has at least tried to do something to clean itself up but others just aren;t interested. There was a famous case called Operation Puerto a few years ago where a doctor was raided in Spain (spain is notoriously lax on doping) and the police found evidence of wide scale blood doping / transfusions. Every cyclist on the doctors list was investigated and many where banned. Over half the sportsmen using the doctors where from tennis, football and athletics. Not one person from theses sports was banned. There was evidence linking a top italian football team to the doctor, this team coincidentally scored more goals in the last 10 minutes of matches than any other in europe, the players where somehow fitter. Despite the fact that the club where making cash payments to the doctor in question, fifa concluded there was nothing suspicious. Arsene Wenger has also said that when he buys a player from europe, he often can't play them for weeks until their blood levels return to normal. Doping is rife in all top sport, but theres too much money involved and too many people getting rich for it to ever be dealt with properly.
Jimaroid
Journeyman Pro
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/30981609
"I'd probably cheat again" says Lance Armstrong.
I think that settles the question of whether he's a trustworthy sportsman or not. A disgraceful man in my opinion.
"I'd probably cheat again" says Lance Armstrong.
I think that settles the question of whether he's a trustworthy sportsman or not. A disgraceful man in my opinion.
Tongo
Journeyman Pro
I find the comments about bike sales and the money raised from charity particularly disingenuous and distasteful, almost justifying the means. That money was made on the back of people believing in you as an athlete Lance, not you as a doped up junkie.
SaintHacker
Journeyman Pro
Thats not actually what he says though, is it. It states if he went back to 1995 he would probably do it again, but not now. Because back then doping was so widespread it was considered the norm and you needed to do it just to keep up.
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