Lance Armstrong

[Jimaroid]

The intent of his words are quite clear, he would cheat again. The circumstances of others are irrelevant, he chose to cheat then, forced others to cheat, and says he would choose to cheat again if he could by some miracle go back in time.

Not everyone was doping but lots were and he was. Blaming others for his decision is just another nail in his coffin.

 

[Tashyboy]

So let me get this right, if he was back in 1995 again he would cheat. Having lied, cheated, robbed, back stabbed and knowing that he let down millions of his adoring public he would do it all again.

His is carefully planned interview to start getting himself back into the public eye has backfired dramatically. Grade one tool.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

And its the mindset from today's quote why I wouldn't trust him as a golfer. It's ingrained in his psyche

 

[colint]

I find the comments about bike sales and the money raised from charity particularly disingenuous and distasteful, almost justifying the means. That money was made on the back of people believing in you as an athlete Lance, not you as a doped up junkie.

Why ? Trek are trying to sue him for damage to their brand, the point he's trying to make is that without him Trek were also rans in the bike world and made their name on the back of his victories. Lots of people made money out of Armstrong cheating, but he's the only one being punished, and some of the biggest winners are now trying to sue him. Trek bike sales went from 100 million dollars to 1 billion dollars. I think they did OK

 

[colint]

The intent of his words are quite clear, he would cheat again. The circumstances of others are irrelevant, he chose to cheat then, forced others to cheat, and says he would choose to cheat again if he could by some miracle go back in time.

Not everyone was doping but lots were and he was. Blaming others for his decision is just another nail in his coffin.

Wheres the evidence that he forced anyone to cheat ? Nobody had to dope, they chose to in order to get a place on his team. They could have rode for one of the lesser teams on a tenth of the salary, funnily, they chose not to. He wasn't sticking needles in people arms, they chose to the same as he did

 

[SaintHacker]

The intent of his words are quite clear, he would cheat again. The circumstances of others are irrelevant, he chose to cheat then, forced others to cheat, and says he would choose to cheat again if he could by some miracle go back in time.

Not everyone was doping but lots were and he was. Blaming others for his decision is just another nail in his coffin.

Thats not how I read it, and I would say the circumstances of others are completely relevant. He says he wouldn't dope if he was riding now, but would if he went back to 95. that to me is because in 95 he would need to dope to stand any chance, but now as the sport is so much cleaner he could compete clean on a level playing field.
I'm not saying its right, far from it, but this is high level sport we are talking about with millions of pounds/dollars/euros etc at stake.

If you really want to point a finger at who is responsible, point it at the team sponsors. They put huge pressure on the team managers to win races, who in turn put huge pressure on the riders. Sadly people will do what they feel they have to to gain an advantage, and not be out of a job the next season.

 

[Jimaroid]

Wheres the evidence that he forced anyone to cheat ? Nobody had to dope, they chose to in order to get a place on his team.

In their report the USADA concluded that Armstrong coerced and expected his teammates to dope. He made others cheat, it's as close to absolute certainty as it can be based on individual testimony, although of course it's convenient that those teammates also have him to blame.

 

[colint]

In their report the USADA concluded that Armstrong coerced and expected his teammates to dope. He made others cheat, it's as close to absolute certainty as it can be based on individual testimony, although of course it's convenient that those teammates also have him to blame.

That'snot forcing though is it ? They all had a choice. A rider who actually chose not to dope who rode for another team said he'd be given 2 contracts at the beginning of the season by the team management, a none doping one on 20,000 euro a year and a doping one on 200,000. It's not really forcing is it, but I bet some of the people moralising wouldn't have found it so easy to make the decision when they could secure their families futures by cheating in a bike race

 

[Jimaroid]

Armstrongs tactics appear to be a combination of bullying in various forms, using financial leverage over others and litigiousness against anyone that spoke against him. If that's not force, I don't know what is.

 

[colint]

Armstrongs tactics appear to be a combination of bullying in various forms, using financial leverage over others and litigiousness against anyone that spoke against him. If that's not force, I don't know what is.

So if your employer offers you a tenfold pay rise to cheat and work, or the option to stay as you are thats bullying ? Armstrong was most definitely a bully, but not in making people dope, more in terrorising people who tried to speak out

 

[Jimaroid]

So if your employer offers you a tenfold pay rise to cheat and work, or the option to stay as you are thats bullying ?

You think it isn't?

It's coercion, a form of bullying. Similar to extortion and blackmail. It's a violation of the free will of others. Threats of punishment unless a desired action is performed. How can it possibly be anything else?

A liar, a cheat, a fraud, a bully... Armstrong is all these and more.

 

[Tommo21]

Not read all of this because it rips my knitting. The people I feel sorry for are the guys who never got the opportunity to stand on the top step, lost out on sponsorship and the chance of big money because of this cheating liar.........no time for him.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Not read all of this because it rips my knitting. The people I feel sorry for are the guys who never got the opportunity to stand on the top step, lost out on sponsorship and the chance of big money because of this cheating liar.........no time for him.

Wasnt it rife in those days though ?

It seems that all the main riders from the 90s and into the 00's were all involved in doping ?

 

[TheJezster]

Here's another way to look at it... For those of you saying you think he'd definitely cheat at golf, why? Surely by telling the truth that if he was back in 95 he would dope, he'd still tell the truth and call any golf penalty on himself? For me, this is another strong argument for him, not against. It would be easy and simple to say he'd do things differently, but he didn't chose the easy and simple route, he chose the harder way and told the truth. Now that takes guts. After everything I think he's finally heading the right way. I'd still play golf with him.

 

[colint]

You think it isn't?

It's coercion, a form of bullying. Similar to extortion and blackmail. It's a violation of the free will of others. Threats of punishment unless a desired action is performed. How can it possibly be anything else?

A liar, a cheat, a fraud, a bully... Armstrong is all these and more.

How is it a violation of free will if the option to carry on as you are is there ? There wasn't punishment, they could continue to be average riders in the race, they all chose to cheat, nobody was forced other than by their own greed

 

[Jimaroid]

Here is an excerpt from the USADA reasoned decision, my emphasis.

... Had Mr. Armstrong not refused to confront the evidence against him in a hearing, the witnesses in the case of The United States Anti-Doping Agency v. Lance Armstrong would have testified under oath with a legal duty to testify truthfully or face potential civil and/or criminal consequences. Witness after witness would have been called to the stand and witness after witness would have confirmed the following: That Lance Armstrong used the banned drug EPO.That Lance Armstrong used the banned drug Testosterone. That Lance Armstrong provided his teammates the banned drug EPO. That Lance Armstrong administered to a teammate the banned drug Testosterone. That Lance Armstrong enforced the doping program on his team by threatening a rider with termination if he did not dope in accordance with the plan drawn up byDr. Michele Ferrari. That Lance Armstrong’s doping program was organized by Dr. Ferrari.That Lance Armstrong pushed his teammates to use Dr. Ferrari. That Lance Armstrong used banned blood transfusions to cheat. ...

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Not read all of this because it rips my knitting. The people I feel sorry for are the guys who never got the opportunity to stand on the top step, lost out on sponsorship and the chance of big money because of this cheating liar.........no time for him.

Agree on all of the above. 99% of riders back then were cheats, frankly you can write off most winners during a 20yr period or more, but what takes Armstrong above them is the way he bullied anyone refusing to take drugs to join up or get out. The nastiness of his approach plus the manner in which he legally attacked those who questioned him raises him above all others. He should never be allowed near competitive sport in any form ever again.

 

[Rumpokid]

Greg Lemond looks like the only winner who put in a 'human' performance , for his wins in the last 30 odd years or so..Even Big Mig's (not the golfer ), performances are looking suspect, however, this does not take away the sheer arrogance of the guy that the thread is subject of.

 

[matt71]

Greg Lemond looks like the only winner who put in a 'human' performance , for his wins in the last 30 odd years or so..Even Big Mig's (not the golfer ), performances are looking suspect, however, this does not take away the sheer arrogance of the guy that the thread is subject of.

not just Gregg but also Stephen Roache too. I for one hope Indurain was drug free as he was my idol in my old cycling days

 

[Rumpokid]

not just Gregg but also Stephen Roache too. I for one hope Indurain was drug free as he was my idol in my old cycling days

Mentioned Roche earlier in thread, his book is a good read too..As for Indurain, his performance stats are similar to those who have won and been caught out.Hmmm?? i.e not normal, more mutant.