Lance Armstrong

[Pro Zach]

It is impossible to cheat if what you are doing is within the bounds of the rules of whatever you are doing.
If the Rules of Golf said I was allowed to kick your ball into every ditch we came to I would not be cheating if I did it.

By this definition of cheating you are correct. I will try to use your statement of kicking the ball into the ditch to explain what the hell I'm talking about.

If a rule of golf allowed you to kick an opponents ball into a ditch but didn't allow him the same courtesy, would you do it?

I think most golfers wouldn't. They would immediately see that a rule that allows them to do something, but not others, is unfair. I think if you did it because it is in the rules, and therefore not cheating, you would still feel like you cheated because it would still seem unfair.

I don't think there are any rules of golf like this. The rules of golf are the same for everyone.

But the handicap does not treat everyone the same. If you play a scratch golfer you are allowed to take 7 shots off your score and he isn't allowed to take off any. This is unfair because it treats you both differently.

The thing that seems to make me odd is that I do see the unfairness of handicapping. If I play a scratch golfer I am allowed to take 13 shots of my score and he isn't allowed to take off any. To me this feels immoral, unfair and feels like I'm cheating. There is nothing in my head that justifies me doing this. It is not his fault I am crap at golf. Being crap at golf is my responsibility. I admire the hard work that he has put in to become a scratch golfer. If he can beat me while playing to the same rules he deserves the trophy. If I ever manage to beat him playing to the same rules then I deserve the trophy. If I never get good enough then I can live with that. But I struggle to live with playing by different rules so I can steal the trophy. The idea that I am allowed to take an advantage to make it more fun is ridiculous to me.

I'd prefer to come second last on a level playing field, were the rules are the same for everyone, than come first because the rules advantaged me.

 

[ColchesterFC]

I'd prefer to come second last on a level playing field, were the rules are the same for everyone, than come first because the rules advantaged me.

But you already have this option if you wish to take it. You can either only enter scratch competitions where nobody gets to take any shots off thier score or you can enter handicap competitions and put your handicap in as scratch. As far as I am aware you do not have to play off your handicap and could put whatever number you like in that box on the scorecard as long as it was 13 or less.

I am sure that in most clubs the more prestigious prize over the course of a season is the Scratch Champion but the handicap system gives everyone the chance to compete which surely is the whole point of a "competition".

 

[ExRabbit]

Blah, blah, blah...

I'd prefer to come second last on a level playing field, were the rules are the same for everyone, than come first because the rules advantaged me.

I'd like to think that you are just a troll rather than an idiot. Nobody could be so dumb as this otherwise.

You think that regular golf clubs competitions would happen if everyone played from scratch?

I think you are just an idiot unfortunately.

 

[Slab]

By this definition of cheating you are correct. I will try to use your statement of kicking the ball into the ditch to explain what the hell I'm talking about.

If a rule of golf allowed you to kick an opponents ball into a ditch but didn't allow him the same courtesy, would you do it?

I think most golfers wouldn't. They would immediately see that a rule that allows them to do something, but not others, is unfair. I think if you did it because it is in the rules, and therefore not cheating, you would still feel like you cheated because it would still seem unfair.

I don't think there are any rules of golf like this. The rules of golf are the same for everyone.

But the handicap does not treat everyone the same. If you play a scratch golfer you are allowed to take 7 shots off your score and he isn't allowed to take off any. This is unfair because it treats you both differently.

The thing that seems to make me odd is that I do see the unfairness of handicapping. If I play a scratch golfer I am allowed to take 13 shots of my score and he isn't allowed to take off any. To me this feels immoral, unfair and feels like I'm cheating. There is nothing in my head that justifies me doing this. It is not his fault I am crap at golf. Being crap at golf is my responsibility. I admire the hard work that he has put in to become a scratch golfer. If he can beat me while playing to the same rules he deserves the trophy. If I ever manage to beat him playing to the same rules then I deserve the trophy. If I never get good enough then I can live with that. But I struggle to live with playing by different rules so I can steal the trophy. The idea that I am allowed to take an advantage to make it more fun is ridiculous to me.

I'd prefer to come second last on a level playing field, were the rules are the same for everyone, than come first because the rules advantaged me.

While I can see you point of view (haven’t we all stood there collecting our baseball cap & sleeve of balls while acknowledging to ourselves there were better golfers out there who didn’t win the comp) However it’s one of the conditions of entry known to all players prior to playing the competition that a handicap scoring system will be used, it’s not a rule of the game of golf (& handicapping exists in a great many sports from golf to formula 1)

So you’re not playing to a different set of rules to a scratch golfer, you’ve both entered a particular competition where before play started he agreed you’d take x shots off your actual strokes and you agreed you’d take x shots off your actual strokes. It actually treats both players exactly the same not differently as you suggest
(the formula itself dictates what number of shots is involved for particular players but it’s exactly the same formula for every player so that it cant be unfair)

Without it, as you point out, you’re left only to play against players of similar ability to you and we lose stroke play as a format from the amateur game

I doubt scratch golfers need another sleeve of balls to feel good about their game and doubtless they enter sufficient scratch comps to pit themselves against their peers but when one does choose to play against all-comers in a handicap scoring comp he still knows that every time he steps onto the 1st tee or putts out on the 18th the scratch golfer knows full well that he is the standard bearer by which every other amateur golfer in the world is measured, few will be better players than he, most will be poorer, but this is amateur golf played for pleasure & fun with token prizes for all entrants to compete for

Enjoy your golf

 

[Hacker Khan]

I think they are cheating and it is difficult to argue that without saying it. But I am always open to a better way.

So, a player knowingly and deliberately doesn't count shots that they actually took for the sole purpose of increasing their chance of winning.......what would you call it?

I think you are missing the not so subtle difference between someone breaking the rules and someone following a rule that you do not agree with. One is a cheat, one most certainly is not. Apart from in your world obviously it seems.

 

[TheJezster]

Zach, in your scenario, he is still the better player, you just get to level the field to make a match between you as even as possible, otherwise it would be a non event. This is entirely fair and in keeping with adding excitement to the game and bringing more people into it.

No one is 'cheating' or stealing anything in your scenario, they are simply competing against each other on as level a playing field as possible. Remember, this isn't professional golf, so you cant compare it to professional sport, like football or rugby. Horse racing is handicapped too, different weights depending on jockey and other factors to make it as even a race as possible. You'll still get one winner, sometimes it will be the 'better' horse, sometimes it will be the one with the least handicapped weight.

I can just about see what you are trying to say, however, it's not really relevant in how we as amateurs play golf.

 

[Tongo]

By this definition of cheating you are correct. I will try to use your statement of kicking the ball into the ditch to explain what the hell I'm talking about.

If a rule of golf allowed you to kick an opponents ball into a ditch but didn't allow him the same courtesy, would you do it?

I think most golfers wouldn't. They would immediately see that a rule that allows them to do something, but not others, is unfair. I think if you did it because it is in the rules, and therefore not cheating, you would still feel like you cheated because it would still seem unfair.

I don't think there are any rules of golf like this. The rules of golf are the same for everyone.

But the handicap does not treat everyone the same. If you play a scratch golfer you are allowed to take 7 shots off your score and he isn't allowed to take off any. This is unfair because it treats you both differently.

The thing that seems to make me odd is that I do see the unfairness of handicapping. If I play a scratch golfer I am allowed to take 13 shots of my score and he isn't allowed to take off any. To me this feels immoral, unfair and feels like I'm cheating. There is nothing in my head that justifies me doing this. It is not his fault I am crap at golf. Being crap at golf is my responsibility. I admire the hard work that he has put in to become a scratch golfer. If he can beat me while playing to the same rules he deserves the trophy. If I ever manage to beat him playing to the same rules then I deserve the trophy. If I never get good enough then I can live with that. But I struggle to live with playing by different rules so I can steal the trophy. The idea that I am allowed to take an advantage to make it more fun is ridiculous to me.

I'd prefer to come second last on a level playing field, were the rules are the same for everyone, than come first because the rules advantaged me.

I think your playing the wrong sport pal. Actually, i'd avoid sport altogether if i was you, the utopia you are looking for doesnt exist.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Zach, in your scenario, he is still the better player, you just get to level the field to make a match between you as even as possible, otherwise it would be a non event. This is entirely fair and in keeping with adding excitement to the game and bringing more people into it.

No one is 'cheating' or stealing anything in your scenario, they are simply competing against each other on as level a playing field as possible. Remember, this isn't professional golf, so you cant compare it to professional sport, like football or rugby. Horse racing is handicapped too, different weights depending on jockey and other factors to make it as even a race as possible. You'll still get one winner, sometimes it will be the 'better' horse, sometimes it will be the one with the least handicapped weight.

I can just about see what you are trying to say, however, it's not really relevant in how we as amateurs play golf.

May be because he is a pro, after all why else would you name yourself a pro if you are not, that he thinks this board is populated by other pros? So he is not talking about the amateur game.

 

[Foxholer]

I think your playing the wrong sport pal. Actually, i'd avoid sport altogether if i was you, the utopia you are looking for doesnt exist.

Yes it does - in any Scratch event!

The handicap system is one of the things that sets Golf apart from any other sport in that it aims to create a situation where whoever plays 'best compared to their norm' on the day will win - and pretty much succeeds! If you simply want to find out who is the better golfer, then both/all should play it off scratch. Of course, that aim can be corrupted by unscrupulous competitors or the accusation of unscrupulous behaviour can be made!

And while I have posted that I wouldn't trust Armstrong to count, I agree with his statement as to the integrity of Golf!

For me, he can remain 'out in the cold' for at least as many years as he cheated his way to TdFs! I'd like to see Cycling commit to a several year ban for first instance of deliberate drug use and a life ban for a second.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

By this definition of cheating you are correct. I will try to use your statement of kicking the ball into the ditch to explain what the hell I'm talking about.

If a rule of golf allowed you to kick an opponents ball into a ditch but didn't allow him the same courtesy, would you do it?

I think most golfers wouldn't. They would immediately see that a rule that allows them to do something, but not others, is unfair. I think if you did it because it is in the rules, and therefore not cheating, you would still feel like you cheated because it would still seem unfair.

I don't think there are any rules of golf like this. The rules of golf are the same for everyone.

But the handicap does not treat everyone the same. If you play a scratch golfer you are allowed to take 7 shots off your score and he isn't allowed to take off any. This is unfair because it treats you both differently.

The thing that seems to make me odd is that I do see the unfairness of handicapping. If I play a scratch golfer I am allowed to take 13 shots of my score and he isn't allowed to take off any. To me this feels immoral, unfair and feels like I'm cheating. There is nothing in my head that justifies me doing this. It is not his fault I am crap at golf. Being crap at golf is my responsibility. I admire the hard work that he has put in to become a scratch golfer. If he can beat me while playing to the same rules he deserves the trophy. If I ever manage to beat him playing to the same rules then I deserve the trophy. If I never get good enough then I can live with that. But I struggle to live with playing by different rules so I can steal the trophy. The idea that I am allowed to take an advantage to make it more fun is ridiculous to me.

I'd prefer to come second last on a level playing field, were the rules are the same for everyone, than come first because the rules advantaged me.

So lets pretend you're a scratch golfer and your playing me (off 14) in a scratch event, you finish 10 over and I finish 12 over, you win, however it won't feel like a win as you've finished 10 over, me, I'm on cloud nine as I feel like I won the moral victory as I have played well.
In reality the match was pointless because without hitting a ball we know you are the best golfer.
You take the prize having played badly, pretty much a hollow victory.
Surely there be no point in playing golf.

 

[Pro Zach]

But you already have this option if you wish to take it. You can either only enter scratch competitions where nobody gets to take any shots off thier score or you can enter handicap competitions and put your handicap in as scratch. As far as I am aware you do not have to play off your handicap and could put whatever number you like in that box on the scorecard as long as it was 13 or less.

I am sure that in most clubs the more prestigious prize over the course of a season is the Scratch Champion but the handicap system gives everyone the chance to compete which surely is the whole point of a "competition".

I would enter scratch comps but I would get balloted out because my handicap is too high. Entering 0 my score card doesn't solve my problem. Also it effects css which would be unfair.

The handicap doesn't give everyone the chance to compete, it gives everyone an equal chance of winning. You do not need an equal chance of winning to compete. Have you ever played any game or sport were you have had to compete against an opponent you knew was better than you? Did you refuse to play or did you try your best and enjoy the challenge?

I think that challenge is the most enjoyable part of competition. We don't have this in golf because everyone is made equal.

 

[Pro Zach]

While I can see you point of view (haven’t we all stood there collecting our baseball cap & sleeve of balls while acknowledging to ourselves there were better golfers out there who didn’t win the comp) However it’s one of the conditions of entry known to all players prior to playing the competition that a handicap scoring system will be used, it’s not a rule of the game of golf (& handicapping exists in a great many sports from golf to formula 1)

So you’re not playing to a different set of rules to a scratch golfer, you’ve both entered a particular competition where before play started he agreed you’d take x shots off your actual strokes and you agreed you’d take x shots off your actual strokes. It actually treats both players exactly the same not differently as you suggest
(the formula itself dictates what number of shots is involved for particular players but it’s exactly the same formula for every player so that it cant be unfair)

Without it, as you point out, you’re left only to play against players of similar ability to you and we lose stroke play as a format from the amateur game

I doubt scratch golfers need another sleeve of balls to feel good about their game and doubtless they enter sufficient scratch comps to pit themselves against their peers but when one does choose to play against all-comers in a handicap scoring comp he still knows that every time he steps onto the 1st tee or putts out on the 18th the scratch golfer knows full well that he is the standard bearer by which every other amateur golfer in the world is measured, few will be better players than he, most will be poorer, but this is amateur golf played for pleasure & fun with token prizes for all entrants to compete for

Enjoy your golf

I disagree with your second paragraph. You don't both take x shots off. One takes x shots off and the other takes y shots off. Each taking a different number of shots off proves they are treated differently. So before you start play you have agreed to be treated differently.

As for losing match play as a format (I assume you meant) I have previously on this forum suggested keeping the handicap for match play. But run medals in divisions without handicaps and have a most improved player award (i.e. best nett) for the people who want to compete for that.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I would enter scratch comps but I would get balloted out because my handicap is too high. Entering 0 my score card doesn't solve my problem. Also it effects css which would be unfair.

The handicap doesn't give everyone the chance to compete, it gives everyone an equal chance of winning. You do not need an equal chance of winning to compete. Have you ever played any game or sport were you have had to compete against an opponent you knew was better than you? Did you refuse to play or did you try your best and enjoy the challenge?

I think that challenge is the most enjoyable part of competition. We don't have this in golf because everyone is made equal.

And that is exactly what makes golf great and sets it apart from all other sports

Take that away and the sport dies very quickly.

Comparisons to other sports doesn't work because golf is different.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

And that is exactly what makes golf great and sets it apart from all other sports

Take that away and the sport dies very quickly.

Comparisons to other sports doesn't work because golf is different.

100% Agree

 

[Pro Zach]

I think you are missing the not so subtle difference between someone breaking the rules and someone following a rule that you do not agree with. One is a cheat, one most certainly is not. Apart from in your world obviously it seems.

I think you'll find I'm not. I have already conceded to Imurg that by that definition of cheating you are correct. I also think it is a cheap trick to use that definintion to try to prove me wrong.

For example, it is possible, without breaking any rules, for a golfer to be a bandit (have a higher handicap than their ability). But most people will still consider them a cheat.

Cheat: a person who behaves in a dishonest way.

 

[Pro Zach]

I'd like to think that you are just a troll rather than an idiot. Nobody could be so dumb as this otherwise.

You think that regular golf clubs competitions would happen if everyone played from scratch?

I think you are just an idiot unfortunately.

Talking of trolls and idiots...

 

[chrisd]

I played competitive but very amateur tennis and many years ago Volkeswagon sponsored a competition nationally where a handicap system was introduced whereby the lessor ability player was given a lead in every game - say 30 love, them the game was played out as normal.

This was an attempt to equalise matches like in golf so that it was theoretically possible for a less talented player to beat a better opponent if the lessor player managed to up his game on the day.

Ultimately it didn't work because, particularly at the better end of the game, the fact that someone was a better player meant that they would still always win as you'd not be able to return their serve or play at their pace

Golf has addressed (to a large extent) the best way to handicap players so that anyone can play anyone else - hence the chance to have a real game at any level!

 

[Pro Zach]

And that is exactly what makes golf great and sets it apart from all other sports

Take that away and the sport dies very quickly.

Comparisons to other sports doesn't work because golf is different.

If it is the handicap system that makes golf great, why do cat 1 players enter scratch comps?

 

[chrisd]

If it is the handicap system that makes golf great, why do cat 1 players enter scratch comps?

Simple!

Because they play with like ability players and can win because the handicap ranges are usually much less that say between cat 3 players

Why, however, do the cat 1 players also play in our club competitions that are open to all handicap categories?

 

[Pro Zach]

Simple!

Because they play with like ability players and can win because the handicap ranges are usually much less that say between cat 3 players

Why, however, do the cat 1 players also play in our club competitions that are open to all handicap categories?

Apparently they play in the club competition because the handicap system is what makes golf great.

The question is, if it is the handicap that makes the game great, why would they choose to play in a non handicapped competition?