Ladies section

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes your club is discriminating against both men and women Phil.

It’s not discriminatory because each full paying member gets the same general play access to the course

The 5 day members get 5 days

There are some restrictions for pending members etc and they pay less fees


It’s not discriminatory to hold Ladies only or Men only competitions etc

My last club in England was equal fees, equal access. All comps apart from the men’s and ladies club championship were open to all. You chose the tee you wanted to play off and the computer did all the shot differential calculations. There were no moans because the club was relatively new and had been like that from day 1. All monies spent came from a central pot.

At a previous club a mixed working party was set up to sort access for all. The ladies voted it out because of the increase in fees. Sadly, half a doz ladies left for another, “more modern club” because they worked 9-5 Monday to Friday and could only get 18 holes in on a Sunday afternoon, apart from 3-4 months a year when they could fit in evening golf.

It all kicked off when the Ladies decided to move their open days and invitational days to a Thursday - when it was asked why not on a Tuesday when they have the tee booked - they said that would mean the ladies couldn’t play - so they took Thursday and kicked out the two roll ups

 

[LizAig]

From what I read in the post the ladies don’t appear to not have access to play golf at the weekend - they just don’t have comps on the weekend

We as a club can’t have comps on a Tuesday yet pay the same as Ladies - are men being discriminated against ?


We aren’t being told we can’t play on Tuesday we just can’t play in the comps on Tuesday - and I suspect that’s the same across many golf clubs.

Ladies at many clubs will be able to play every single day

Technically we do have access to the course but really don’t because most weekends there are men’s comps so the course isn’t free till late. I think there are only 3 or 4 Saturdays in summer without a comp and most weekends there are comps on Saturday or Sunday ….but in all honesty I don’t just want access to the course so I can hit a ball - I want to play in comps!
Your post highlights a great thorn in the side for many women which most men don’t even realise is an issue - that ‘ladies’ days‘ are always midweek which means most of us have to take days off work just to be able to play in club comps or in opens! I was lucky that my manager let me work an extra hour each day so I could have Thursday afternoon off but I would have much rather been able to play all my golf at a weekend! Now I’ve taken early retirement it’s not an issue but I’ve asked committee that next year all ladies majors have an alternate day.

 

[Red devil]

You can offer reduced membership to a specific group you are trying to encourage to play at the club - it was introduced at our club before I joined 10 years ago and has been kept because we are such a small section - last time I looked 12% of members are female so that why they still give the reduction. However there is a lot of sexism and that’s why we are slowly fighting against it - I’m one for thinking it’s better to go slow to get everyone on board and it’s working as this year we have played alongside then men on captain’s, vice captain’s and rabbit captains weekend and we are also now allowed to play on the roll ups - supposedly we always were but no one ever told us! We can also now play our alternate medals at any time on a Saturday instead of having to wait till all the men had gone out!

Last time it all kicked off was when the club comp secretary was asked to put on a club comp on each day of a long weekend - he made 2 for men only and when challenged said he organises comps for the majority not the minority - when a lady put in a formal complaint at least three men on committee supported him saying if ladies want to play at the weekend in comps then they need to pay full fees - I’m on committee and went a bit ballistic saying that I then expected no seniors and no juniors and no men ages between 19 and 30 to play at the weekend because they also don’t pay full fees!! Everything went a bit quiet and we were allowed to play! We are getting there slowly!

Nice touch by the comp secretary there. A little journey back to the 19th century does us all good now and again.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Technically we do have access to the course but really don’t because most weekends there are men’s comps so the course isn’t free till late. I think there are only 3 or 4 Saturdays in summer without a comp and most weekends there are comps on Saturday or Sunday ….but in all honesty I don’t just want access to the course so I can hit a ball - I want to play in comps!
Your post highlights a great thorn in the side for many women which most men don’t even realise is an issue - that ‘ladies’ days‘ are always midweek which means most of us have to take days off work just to be able to play in club comps or in opens! I was lucky that my manager let me work an extra hour each day so I could have Thursday afternoon off but I would have much rather been able to play all my golf at a weekend! Now I’ve taken early retirement it’s not an issue but I’ve asked committee that next year all ladies majors have an alternate day.

The reason why the Ladies Day is midweek at our place is because that’s what the ladies want

The biggest issue for Ladies who work during the week at most clubs is normally the ladies section themselves not wanting to change or find ways to integrate

As i said previously I changed all our medals and Stablefords at the weekend to allow anyone to enter and there are a number of the main board comps open to all now as well

The Ladies Section put in place restrictions to stop those ladies who only play at the weekend to be able to play in any Ladies Comp because they believe those ladies weren’t taking part in the Ladies Section fully

Having been on committee now for 10 years the biggest obstacle at the club for ladies that want to play comps at weekend is their own Ladies Section

 

[pendodave]

The reason why the Ladies Day is midweek at our place is because that’s what the ladies want

The biggest issue for Ladies who work during the week at most clubs is normally the ladies section themselves not wanting to change or find ways to integrate

As i said previously I changed all our medals and Stablefords at the weekend to allow anyone to enter and there are a number of the main board comps open to all now as well

The Ladies Section put in place restrictions to stop those ladies who only play at the weekend to be able to play in any Ladies Comp because they believe those ladies weren’t taking part in the Ladies Section fully

Having been on committee now for 10 years the biggest obstacle at the club for ladies that want to play comps at weekend is their own Ladies Section

Interesting. And congrats on moving the world slightly forward!

I wonder how our own Ladies' section works - we have a similar (wedesday) ladies' day with all the comps. The difference is that we have a weekend medal and s/f every month for Ladies, but I'm not sure that they're allowed to book in the morning tee time slots that are used by the men's comps. I suspect not, which means that they're effectively banished to the weekend afternoons. I've no idea if any attempt has been made to change this setup, or if anyone thinks that the setup limits the number and diversity of ladies who play golf at our club. For fairly obvious reasons, I don't think it is any particular business of mine, but if one of my daughters started playing golf I might find it becomes so...

 

[LizAig]

Nice touch by the comp secretary there. A little journey back to the 19th century does us all good now and again.

LOL -

The reason why the Ladies Day is midweek at our place is because that’s what the ladies want

The biggest issue for Ladies who work during the week at most clubs is normally the ladies section themselves not wanting to change or find ways to integrate

As i said previously I changed all our medals and Stablefords at the weekend to allow anyone to enter and there are a number of the main board comps open to all now as well

The Ladies Section put in place restrictions to stop those ladies who only play at the weekend to be able to play in any Ladies Comp because they believe those ladies weren’t taking part in the Ladies Section fully

Having been on committee now for 10 years the biggest obstacle at the club for ladies that want to play comps at weekend is their own Ladies Section

Historically ladies days were midweek because ladies who played golf did not work ….I’m going back years and years here! I agree about ladies not wanting to change - it took me a while to convince the ladies that we should have weekend alternates for all our medals. I’m really hopeful that next year we’ll have alternates for nearly all Comps however I’m not sure what the next step is - do we move all ladies comps to a weekend or do we continue to have our main day as Thursday with alternates on a weekend but also then have club Comps for those ladies who already played the main comp but still want a weekend comp….a bit like the men who do midweek medals but then comps on the weekend too! So many questions and possibilities!

 

[LizAig]

Interesting. And congrats on moving the world slightly forward!

I wonder how our own Ladies' section works - we have a similar (wedesday) ladies' day with all the comps. The difference is that we have a weekend medal and s/f every month for Ladies, but I'm not sure that they're allowed to book in the morning tee time slots that are used by the men's comps. I suspect not, which means that they're effectively banished to the weekend afternoons. I've no idea if any attempt has been made to change this setup, or if anyone thinks that the setup limits the number and diversity of ladies who play golf at our club. For fairly obvious reasons, I don't think it is any particular business of mine, but if one of my daughters started playing golf I might find it becomes so...

We used to only be able to play after 4pm—-who wants to play a medal then?!? It changed to 12.30 to 12.50 when Mr Captains wife complained and he said there was a gap between AM and PM men at that time (we are a 9 hole club) so we just started playing then without asking anyone!! We then moved to being able to play at any time with introduction of Club V1 app and a few discussions about equal access to comp tee times. Thankfully some men don’t have any problem with women in the course but I’ll never forget how embarrassing it was when a man complained loudly at a roll up saying since when have women been allowed to play at this time!

 

[Mel Smooth]

We’ve a few Asian members at our club, perhaps we could tell them they can’t play in weekend comps, but can have a medal on a Thursday that whites aren’t allowed to play in….?


Can people not see how obvious, and equally ridiculous the ongoing discrimination in golf actually is?

 

[D-S]

Its quite simple, every time you have a competition run a parallel comp for the other section - booking either roll up or first come first serve for tee times. No discrimination, no problem. If certain sections don't want to play at certain times, who cares as they just don't need to play but at least they have equal opportunity and access.
I would not wanting to be running a club or section that could be easily accused of discrimination. Social Media is easily used to attack golf clubs and tarnish reputations fairly or unfairly - golf clubs are easy targets. Arguments such as 'our Ladies like to be discriminated against' won't wash in public.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

We’ve a few Asian members at our club, perhaps we could tell them they can’t play in weekend comps, but can have a medal on a Thursday that whites aren’t allowed to play in….?


Can people not see how obvious, and equally ridiculous the ongoing discrimination in golf actually is?

I think we need to be very careful here - getting very close to the mark there


Many clubs have competitions that are entry only based on sex - and that’s the same with any sport , that’s not discrimination to have male and female only competitions


Clubs will set up their competitions to try and please as many of their members as possible and they can’t please everyone

There is only a finite amount of time people can play on a golf course and it’s very hard to judge - weekends is especially a core period for the majority of the golf club with the majority of the members still working and only being able to play weekend

 

[Hobbit]

You can offer reduced membership to a specific group you are trying to encourage to play at the club - it was introduced at our club before I joined 10 years ago and has been kept because we are such a small section - last time I looked 12% of members are female so that why they still give the reduction. However there is a lot of sexism and that’s why we are slowly fighting against it - I’m one for thinking it’s better to go slow to get everyone on board and it’s working as this year we have played alongside then men on captain’s, vice captain’s and rabbit captains weekend and we are also now allowed to play on the roll ups - supposedly we always were but no one ever told us! We can also now play our alternate medals at any time on a Saturday instead of having to wait till all the men had gone out!

Last time it all kicked off was when the club comp secretary was asked to put on a club comp on each day of a long weekend - he made 2 for men only and when challenged said he organises comps for the majority not the minority - when a lady put in a formal complaint at least three men on committee supported him saying if ladies want to play at the weekend in comps then they need to pay full fees - I’m on committee and went a bit ballistic saying that I then expected no seniors and no juniors and no men ages between 19 and 30 to play at the weekend because they also don’t pay full fees!! Everything went a bit quiet and we were allowed to play! We are getting there slowly!

I stood up at an AGM way back in the 80’s and argued for better access for ladies. I very nearly got lynched, and got moaned at for weeks. I’ve been playing since the late 60’s. In the 2000’s, for my captain’s Day I invited the ladies and the juniors, and got moaned at. As for the committee waiting on for the lady Captain’s Christmas Dinner, that was a step too far for most.

Things have improved but no where near far enough.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

We used to only be able to play after 4pm—-who wants to play a medal then?!? It changed to 12.30 to 12.50 when Mr Captains wife complained and he said there was a gap between AM and PM men at that time (we are a 9 hole club) so we just started playing then without asking anyone!! We then moved to being able to play at any time with introduction of Club V1 app and a few discussions about equal access to comp tee times. Thankfully some men don’t have any problem with women in the course but I’ll never forget how embarrassing it was when a man complained loudly at a roll up saying since when have women been allowed to play at this time!

All medals and Stablefords should be open to all and that includes the midweek seniors and ladies comps

That’s shouldn’t include any historical board or trophy comps which come with their own rules

But there also needs to be flexibility from all and that includes the “Ladies Day”

Interesting. And congrats on moving the world slightly forward!

I wonder how our own Ladies' section works - we have a similar (wedesday) ladies' day with all the comps. The difference is that we have a weekend medal and s/f every month for Ladies, but I'm not sure that they're allowed to book in the morning tee time slots that are used by the men's comps. I suspect not, which means that they're effectively banished to the weekend afternoons. I've no idea if any attempt has been made to change this setup, or if anyone thinks that the setup limits the number and diversity of ladies who play golf at our club. For fairly obvious reasons, I don't think it is any particular business of mine, but if one of my daughters started playing golf I might find it becomes so...

Before Covid when it was just rock up and play you would never see ladies play on a Saturday

When we went to tee times because of Covid the tee times were set at the weekend for anyone to play and from that a bunch of ladies created their own weekend swindle around 10-11 and it’s grown from there and every weekend they are there and no one bats an eyelid

Then we come to Tuesday - when we set up the tee times the Tuesdays were taken up by both men and ladies playing - it went nuclear with the ladies going mental that men were playing during “their day and time “ and they demanded that the tee time rules be changed to allow only ladies to play then - unfortunately the president at the time was married to the lady captain and we were outvoted - we have tried a lot to get more juniors , working ladies into the club and it’s always the same core of Ladies that fight back and dominate the Ladies section

 

[Mel Smooth]

I think we need to be very careful here - getting very close to the mark there


Many clubs have competitions that are entry only based on sex - and that’s the same with any sport , that’s not discrimination to have male and female only competitions


Clubs will set up their competitions to try and please as many of their members as possible and they can’t please everyone

There is only a finite amount of time people can play on a golf course and it’s very hard to judge - weekends is especially a core period for the majority of the golf club with the majority of the members still working and only being able to play weekend

So it’s ok to discriminate on sex, but not on race.

Got it.

 

[Slab]

The local club doesn’t have a ladies section or a mens section. It just has members/non-members/visitors etc.
For comps the entry invite is sent stating the prize-winning placings etc I don’t recall seeing (m)any with separate mens/womens placings

I’m in another couple of nomadic clubs and their comps are also just 1st 2nd 3rd etc with invite sent to members & all play together. The only exception being club champs where there is both women’s and mens titles at stake, and those are held on the course at the same time/date etc

The club’s only a few years old though, maybe that makes a difference. I know there’s a couple of informal mens and womens roll-ups during the week though. So there's obviously still a desire from some to play separately on occasion

There’s still an imbalance between overall numbers of men/women players but watching groups cycle round the turn on any given day I wouldn’t bet any more than a choc-chip cookie on whether the next group up the 9th would contain men, women or be mixed

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So it’s ok to discriminate on sex, but not on race.

Got it.

Let’s not be silly shall we


No one has suggested anything as such

Bringing race into it is a poor analogy and doesn’t achieve anything

Have male and female only comps isn’t discrimination

 

[YandaB]

Let’s not be silly shall we


No one has suggested anything as such

Bringing race into it is a poor analogy and doesn’t achieve anything

Have male and female only comps isn’t discrimination

Bib, if you are talking about scratch competitions, I reckon that you are on safe ground. Otherwise, given the handicapping nature of golf and the ability to take into account mixed tees, I think that you are on much trickier ground.

 

[D-S]

Have male and female only comps isn’t discrimination

……unless those competitions restrict access to the course based on gender.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

……unless those competitions restrict access to the course based on gender.

Are clubs discriminating against women by hosting men-only competitions?

Is it fair tee times can be restricted on gender grounds? We look at what the Equality Act says and the guidance that's been given to clubs

www.nationalclubgolfer.com

The club will need to ensure a few things are in place including that there is fair access to the course for all and the comp for example doesn’t happen every Saturday from dawn till dusk etc

 

[D-S]

Are clubs discriminating against women by hosting men-only competitions?

Is it fair tee times can be restricted on gender grounds? We look at what the Equality Act says and the guidance that's been given to clubs

www.nationalclubgolfer.com

The club will need to ensure a few things are in place including that there is fair access to the course for all and the comp for example doesn’t happen every Saturday from dawn till dusk etc

I wouldn’t like to be the one who would have to convince a legal mind that “club “would have to show that blocking the Saturday mornings for men’s competitions was (i) reasonably necessary for raising revenue and promoting the club, (ii) that the club’s need to achieve the revenue and promotion outweighs the unequal treatment of female members and (iii) that revenue and promotion could not be achieved in a less discriminatory way.”
it seems like dodgy ground for a defence of an outmoded practice.

 

[sweaty sock]

Ladies can play in any competition at ours, and because its an open tee sheet, at any time too. They have 2 teams (same as mens) which have allocated times twice a fortnight for home matches.

They also have block booking on a friday which they use for about 5 hours where only women can play. They normally run a womens only comp.

The main competition fund pays for all prizes etc. I doubt thats a subsidy though as per capita its probably equal value. Theres a womens prize in all events.

So they're better off than the men really as Friday is a write off most weeks for male members.

Full male members are the worst off, they have the fewest competition options, least percentage of full male members get to play team golf, least chance of winning a prize, and no restricted times or comps of their own. Juniors, seniors and ladies all have at least one restricted comp a week. Juniors get an hours tee times a day in summer, seniors get 3 hours restricted a week.

None of the restricted tee times are anything like peak times, but at least a couple times a year I'm put out... particularly on bank hols etc.