Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
Is it a mountain or a mole hill
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Labour Party discuss
- Thread starter Tashyboy
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robinthehood
Hacker
Beezerk
Money List Winner
It’s a negative mole hill.
It is an interesting one to watch unfold. There is no doubt that the Momentum group have managed to pretty much take over Labour and that has left the centrists without a party. Most of the talent in the party, imo, is sat on the back benches as they will not serve under Corbyn. They have tried to remove him but the system doesn't work for the MP's, it works for the members and thanks to the muppet Harriet Harman and her cheap membership move Corbyn followers flooded in. If Corbyn went tomorrow it is likely another of his pals would get in.
What do the centrists do then? They have clearly decided that waiting for the left to implode is not happening and so they are rolling the dice. The next few weeks will show if they gain any traction, if other MP's jump ship, if backers come in to help them. If they don't then they are stuffed, they will likely lose their seats, history suggests this, and they will disappear to work for Westminster pressure groups or write in the media. Who knows, may be they will pick up some disaffected Tories along the way. Plenty of them at the moment with the current Brexit issues.
What do the centrists do then? They have clearly decided that waiting for the left to implode is not happening and so they are rolling the dice. The next few weeks will show if they gain any traction, if other MP's jump ship, if backers come in to help them. If they don't then they are stuffed, they will likely lose their seats, history suggests this, and they will disappear to work for Westminster pressure groups or write in the media. Who knows, may be they will pick up some disaffected Tories along the way. Plenty of them at the moment with the current Brexit issues.
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
LT, seems to me Labour and Corbyn are sat back waiting for the Torys to implode, and members of Labour are sat back waiting for Corbyn and friends to implode.
Oh to be a voter.
Oh to be a voter.
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
The problem. Is that the party members, predominantly well left of centre, elect the leader but, in a general election, the majority of non Tory voting voters are much more moderate and don't want to vote for a party dominated by Marxists. The only solution is a new party, whose leader is elected by the party's sitting MPs, it's the only way it makes sense. If there's no breakaway party what I'd like to see is all the deselected moderate candidates stand as independents in their former constituencies. This would likely result in a split Labour vote & another Tory government which would be, ironically, something the majority of voters would not want.
If the leader of Labour continues to be selected only by the people keen enough to join the party they will never represent the majority of the electorate.
If the leader of Labour continues to be selected only by the people keen enough to join the party they will never represent the majority of the electorate.
Bunkermagnet
Journeyman Pro
I’m not surprised, and can see most Liberals and quite a few Tories joining them.
As I see it, Corbin is unelectable and the Tories have May by the short and curlies and are only waiting for Boris to take over and screw everything up even more than it already is.
As I see it, Corbin is unelectable and the Tories have May by the short and curlies and are only waiting for Boris to take over and screw everything up even more than it already is.
This govt are sat there for the taking but Jezza can't do it. He has let them off the hook. He has the most amazingly incompetent people on his front bench, need we say more than Diane?, and as MiB has pointed out the middle ground of Britain will not vote from him, I left NI out as they do not vote for any of the UK wide parties. The Tories could barely implode much more and yet still he can't land a punch. The Labour moderates were hoping he would implode but the party system is so skewed towards him and his friends right now that he can carry on and no one can touch him or his followers.
It is a terrible time for British politics. Lifelong Labour voters are left not able to do anything but spoil a ballot paper as there is no one out there to represent them. I suspect there are many Tory voters in the same boat as Brexit has split them apart. Maybe out of the ashes...................
Sweep
Journeyman Pro
I think that Corbyn and his cronies have sat back waiting for the Tories to implode and not noticed what’s happening behind them in their own party.
Momentum is now firmly in charge at the top of the Labour Party which is what they set out for the day Corbyn was elected leader. Many so called disaffected Labour MP’s faced deselection anyway, so an organised jumping of ship is a no brainier.
However, it seems MP’s from all parties need to learn a very important lesson. Who represents us in Parliament has little to do with them. It’s the electorate who will decide and I believe (and hope) Momentum will not get their way. Labour has been down this road before with Michael Foot and it put the Tories in power for 18 years. This group understands the most potent force in British politics is centrist. Blair knew it and put Labour in power for 13 years. The lessons of the past are obvious.
Whilst there was much talk this morning of anti-semitism which I am sure is a factor, make no mistake, this is just as much about Brexit. The breakaway group seem pretty much in tune on that issue as far as I can tell.
The new Independent Group need another big wig like Yvette Cooper to join and it will open up the flood gates.
Farage’s Brexit Party is waiting in the wings if Brexit is delayed and whilst in “normal†times this would cause hardly a ripple, as things are right now it will rip both the Tories and Labour apart if it comes to fruition, as MP’s scramble to keep their seats. Tories like Soubry et al face deselection too unless Brexit can be sorted prior to the next election and everyone can make up.
I wouldn’t be too fussed to see wholesale changes in Parliament anyway. I think this current lot are the worst ever. Arrogant and incapable. A toxic combination.
Interesting times.
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Labour Party = unelectable with Corbyn in charge and people like Abbott in his cabinet
It shows how bad the Labour Party is when it’s the worst Tory in history yet the Labour still can’t get in
It shows how bad the Labour Party is when it’s the worst Tory in history yet the Labour still can’t get in
GB72
Money List Winner
I agree with this opinion. There has been a total lack of centreist politics for some time with the right moving further right and the left moving further left. If this is is presented right, this movement could gain supporters from both sides and in the current Parliament, it would not take many to move to gain signigicant influence. A big ask but you get 10 or so from each of the main parties plus a few others and you may have enough to necessitate a general election.
Grant85
Head Pro
I think ultimately this makes it harder to elect a Labour government.
Lets not remember that in recent years, Brown, Milliband and Corbyn have all failed to win an election or get all that close to stopping the Tories being the largest party.
But the political system makes it a certainty that if the Independents field a few hundred candidates in targeted left leaning seats, they will probably play into the Tories hands and make it easier for a Conservative majority on fewer votes.
Perhaps they will choose not to target Labour held seats, but go for Conservative seats in pro EU / less Brexity areas. But that's probably going to leave them with a very short hit list.
Going to be tough for the likes of Luciana Berger and Chuka Umumna to walk away from huge majorities in their respective seats and start from scratch against a sitting Conservative member - especially given they are both fairly young and I'd imagine will need a salary of some kind. Ultimately in the UK, if you are not elected to any parliament, you are largely ignored. Even Farage had to saddle himself to the Euro Parliament so he could get taken a bit more seriously, otherwise he would have been treated as 'ranty man in suit'.
Personally felt that other than a few brutal speeches targeting the Labour leadership - there wasn't a whole lot about this morning that screamed this was a slick political operation that was about to sweep across the country like Emmanuel Macron did in France.
There didn't seem to be a very good website / twitter account / fund raising page launched all that well. It is there, but the protagonists should have been tweeting the bejeezus out of it while they were on stage.
It all seems a bit half hearted and my initial reaction is that these 7 will probably make very little impact and be cut to 1 or 2 MPs after the next election (albeit that's probably a few years away).
Lets not remember that in recent years, Brown, Milliband and Corbyn have all failed to win an election or get all that close to stopping the Tories being the largest party.
But the political system makes it a certainty that if the Independents field a few hundred candidates in targeted left leaning seats, they will probably play into the Tories hands and make it easier for a Conservative majority on fewer votes.
Perhaps they will choose not to target Labour held seats, but go for Conservative seats in pro EU / less Brexity areas. But that's probably going to leave them with a very short hit list.
Going to be tough for the likes of Luciana Berger and Chuka Umumna to walk away from huge majorities in their respective seats and start from scratch against a sitting Conservative member - especially given they are both fairly young and I'd imagine will need a salary of some kind. Ultimately in the UK, if you are not elected to any parliament, you are largely ignored. Even Farage had to saddle himself to the Euro Parliament so he could get taken a bit more seriously, otherwise he would have been treated as 'ranty man in suit'.
Personally felt that other than a few brutal speeches targeting the Labour leadership - there wasn't a whole lot about this morning that screamed this was a slick political operation that was about to sweep across the country like Emmanuel Macron did in France.
There didn't seem to be a very good website / twitter account / fund raising page launched all that well. It is there, but the protagonists should have been tweeting the bejeezus out of it while they were on stage.
It all seems a bit half hearted and my initial reaction is that these 7 will probably make very little impact and be cut to 1 or 2 MPs after the next election (albeit that's probably a few years away).
Grant85, I think someone has alluded to this already but a number of these MP's, others as well, were being targeted within their own constituency so that they were de-selected in time for the next election. Momentum supporters were joining the local party and pushing for them to be removed. All very feasible to do. They could have stayed, criticised Corbyn more than they already do, been sanctioned and removed. They have jumped before they were pushed.
Brown and Miiliband lost because they were dreadful leaders. How different it could have been had David Milliband won the leadership, not Ed. Don't forget, Blair won 3 elections with centrist policies. Marginally left of centre but very much in the centre. If you read anything by Blair or Alistair Campbell reviewing the early years of them working together the key thing they realised was that to get elected Labour had to move towards the middle ground, not away from it.
Brown and Miiliband lost because they were dreadful leaders. How different it could have been had David Milliband won the leadership, not Ed. Don't forget, Blair won 3 elections with centrist policies. Marginally left of centre but very much in the centre. If you read anything by Blair or Alistair Campbell reviewing the early years of them working together the key thing they realised was that to get elected Labour had to move towards the middle ground, not away from it.
Grant85
Head Pro
Completely agree about Labour winning from the centre. The one good thing about the FPTP system is that it forces parties to appeal to a wide range of voter, rather than ending up with 7 or 8 different factions across the spectrum like most European countries have.
I don't think Corbyn is all that much better than Brown or Miliband. All flawed in their own ways. Corbyn may be an effective campaigner, but I feel there is a sinister side to him and he is very much been pushing his own agenda, not the agenda of his voters, MPs or members. He also does appear to lack a reasonable amount of competence.
Not criticising the 7 for jumping, and accept some were probably on the verge of being pushed out (especially if an election is called) just making a comment that if they do get a head of steam up and field a load of candidates under a 'centrist' banner, it will probably lead to a Conservative majority.
Also - the likes of Corbyn and McDonnell do have a bit of credibility here in that they can say 'we stayed within the party during the Blair / Brown years, we argued our positions and now that we've won the leadership you are walking away'.
Fade and Die
Medal Winner
Agree, The prize is in motivating the middle ground. Nobody bothers with the extremes or the committed - they don't count for many votes compared to the 80% middle ground, and in any case, they cannot be swayed. If they voted for you last time, they'll do it again this time too, regardless of what you say or do.
The politics of beliefs and ideas is dead, the future is populist...it's how Trump got in. And Chavez. And Bolsonaro. And Duterte. And Conte.
Foxholer
Blackballed
I agree with most of this, but not the 2nd paragraph! To me, Brown was significantly better than Corbyn is. Milliband could well have been, but was the (wrong imo) choice of Unions over his brother.
I have no 'feeling' of there being a 'sinister' side to Corbyn - I'm almost certain that there is! Mind you, part of that stems from Conservative 'propaganda' about his overt meetings with 'enemies'! I'm pretty certain there would have been covert meetings by Conservative (even representing UK Government) associated folk as well - otherwise there would have been no way that many of the 'deals' made would have got off the ground! I don't have enough factual info re his 'anti-Semitism' to decide one way or the other (simply being a supporter of Palestinian independence/rights doesn't count imo), but it seems another 'negative' that it's one of the 'reasons' for those 7 to leave.
As for his 'competence'....Distinctly lacking as a speaker and Leader imo.
Until Labour (re-)learns the lesson that they have to win the 'centre' voters, I don't believe they'll ever win an election!
Grant85
Head Pro
I'd say Corybyn's success in terms of capturing public imagination makes up for his lack of ability in other areas. i.e. his leadership campaigns and his performance in GE 2017 were both very effective and the reason he is still there having lost an election, while Brown and Miliband are not.
ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
I'm not sure about the Labour party discus but I'd like to see Jeremy Corbyn doing the shot putt and Diane Abbott doing the 110m hurdles. Or have I missed the point of this thread? 😀
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
I don’t think any MP should be allowed to resign from a Party and keep their seat, they should resign, force a by-election and stand as an independent or a.n. other Party candidate if they wish.
The people in their constinucency voted for a Labour/Tory MP not an Independent.
To me it’s abuse of position and it’s the people who voted them into that position who should decide what Party/Person represents them.
The people in their constinucency voted for a Labour/Tory MP not an Independent.
To me it’s abuse of position and it’s the people who voted them into that position who should decide what Party/Person represents them.
