Jeremy Corbyn

[Old Skier]

Playing devil's advocate here but what if those MP's that are going against Jeremy Corbyn have been told by their constituents that they don't agree with Corbyn's policies? Surely in that case they are doing what they were elected to do and that is to represent their constituencies.

And that is the crux of the matter = they are their to represent their constituents not those that decided Corbyn was the right man for the job.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Don't expect a Labour comeback in Scotland any time soon.
Labour have made a complete horlicks of their selection process for MSP's and it looks like none of the failed Westminster MP's will get a look in.
There will therefore be massive infighting to oust existing list MSP's.

There is talk of an SNP wipe out with Labour and the Tories only represented by a handful of list MSP's

 

[Tashyboy]

Think this thread kind of indicates there are far too many folk basing their vote on the colour of the rosette rather than the quality of the person wearing it... No surprise then we always get dross government...

Fortunately steve I am not One of them, always been a "floater". At this moment in time If there was an election tomorrow I would seriously think about voting Tory. Something I have never done.
Cant believe I have said that. I am off for a bath to cleanse myself.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

And that is the crux of the matter = they are their to represent their constituents not those that decided Corbyn was the right man for the job.

So how do you suggest any Party elects a Leader, Labour was no different to the Tories, MP's chose candidates, members voted!!

 

[jp5]

And that is the crux of the matter = they are their to represent their constituents not those that decided Corbyn was the right man for the job.

Every one of the 9 million Labour voters had the right to pay £3 and vote on who they wanted to lead the party.

Most chose not to have a say, so they've been represented by those who did want a say.

Same as the GE - no point complaining about the result if one didn't engage in the process.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

That's playing with numbers though. That's like saying scoring 4 out of 10 is way better than 2 out of 10. Doubled your score but still failed. In 2010 the Tories needed a Coalition. Labour did so well with the increased vote they lost all but one seat in Scotland, and ended up even further from being elected..

I'm not blaming anyone. What I am saying is the MP's understand how parliament works way better than those that voted for Corbyn. That's like us on here voting to oust Hodgson from the England job coz we don't like him yet he's qualified for the Euro's with 8 wins out of 8. As for the MP's being petulant; I don't think they are. They are being very Labour. They have always been more open and honest than the dodgy handshake in dark corners party. And just maybe they recognise they are unelectable with Corbyn in charge, and want him to either play ball with all the party or go.

There's no doubt he is the wrong man, just don't believe there is no other way for the MP's to behave, as you say they are making themselves look worse and unelectable, which ever party is in power, we need acredible opposition

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Does anyone on here believe that there will be another Labour Government?

 

[jp5]

Does anyone on here believe that there will be another Labour Government?

Of course. Probably not for another decade at least though.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Does anyone on here believe that there will be another Labour Government?

Definitely, and then back to Conservative ad infinitum, the real question is how long the voters will put up with each party till they vote for change, personally don't think we'll see Labour next time........

 

[Tashyboy]

Of course. Probably not for another decade at least though.

Ditto, wrong man up front, no unity in party.

Labour of 2015 is similar to labour of 1980's, a decade that Margaret Thatcher and her party decimated British industry. industry's that had Labour voters at its core. Labour could not once more get its act together and appeal to the very people who's lives were being decimated.

 

[Old Skier]

So how do you suggest any Party elects a Leader, Labour was no different to the Tories, MP's chose candidates, members voted!!

I'm not suggesting that any party changes its current policy although Labours method of paying £3 and getting a vote was daft IMHO as I know quite a few people who just for a laugh paid and voted just to show how easy it was to do.

 

[freddielong]

63% of the Country didn't vote for a conservative to lead the country, so the country must be weak and pathetic by your logic, the issue isn't the vote, it's the man.
Foxholer got it correct!

The election of a government has to be seen to be democratic, I am sure the system to elect the party leader is put in place by the party and just needs to come up with the correct answer. The system labour have in place has been way off certainly the last two times, I am not sure how Brown got in but you could argue the last 3 have been awful choices.

If they can't even get this right how can you expect them to .........................etc etc

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I do not see Labour ever getting a full UK majority without the Scottish vote.
At the moment Labour in Scotland are even more toxic than the Tories were under Thatcher.

Both Milliband and Corbyn rejected an 'arrangement' with the SNP.
I can understand Milliband's stance but Corbyn has made a tactical mistake IMO.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

With the Tories in Scotland dismissed as an irrelevance (at best - as much as many Scots have more of a liking for Ruth Davidson than will ever care to admit to); and with Labour in England seemingly unelectable under Corbyn - the impression that I have got from spending most of the last 3 months in Scotland is that, right or wrongly, much of the Scottish electorate view the SNP as a shield against, and counter to, a 'forever-Tory' Westminster government.

For as long as that lasts - and the Nicola factor prevails - all the mess ups by the SNP government (Holyrood) and any concerns about financially viable of independence will not I think have much impact on SNP support in the electorate.

Does this then become a self-sustaining situation - in that without a large number (25+?) Scottish Labour MPs, Labour will not be able to win a Westminster majority, and as long as that persists then Labour will not win 25+ seats in Scotland? Dunno.

 

[ger147]

The election of a government has to be seen to be democratic, I am sure the system to elect the party leader is put in place by the party and just needs to come up with the correct answer. The system labour have in place has been way off certainly the last two times, I am not sure how Brown got in but you could argue the last 3 have been awful choices.

If they can't even get this right how can you expect them to .........................etc etc

Brown was in effect "crowned" leader i.e. there was no leadership vote, he was the only candidate on the ballot paper and therefore was simply declared the new leader. Milliband got in via the old union block vote system which he then abolished and move to "one member one vote" which may have been the best idea except that many "non-members" also got a vote with the introduction of the 2 categories of supporters, one of which was the infamous "£3 to become a registered supporter" group.

Arguably, Corbyn's was the most democratic as it's based on one person one vote, but true democracy isn't really that popular amongst the political classes in the UK. For the best description of what UK democracy really is and how it works, I would urge you to re-visit Yes Prime Minister Seires 2 Episode 5, "Power to the People". It's almost as funny as it is scary because it is IMHO also deadly accurate.

 

[Hobbit]

With the Tories in Scotland dismissed as an irrelevance (at best - as much as many Scots have more of a liking for Ruth Davidson than will ever care to admit to); and with Labour in England seemingly unelectable under Corbyn - the impression that I have got from spending most of the last 3 months in Scotland is that, right or wrongly, much of the Scottish electorate view the SNP as a shield against, and counter to, a 'forever-Tory' Westminster government.

For as long as that lasts - and the Nicola factor prevails - all the mess ups by the SNP government (Holyrood) and any concerns about financially viable of independence will not I think have much impact on SNP support in the electorate.

Does this then become a self-sustaining situation - in that without a large number (25+?) Scottish Labour MPs, Labour will not be able to win a Westminster majority, and as long as that persists then Labour will not win 25+ seats in Scotland? Dunno.

You've got exactly the same problem in Scotland we in England have, i.e. a one party system. The SNP can do pretty much what they want as there's next to nobody to argue against them. And they've got it even better in so much as they can blame all the failures on Westminster, e.g. the state of the NHS when in fact Scotland controls its NHS budget... God help Scotland too with its one party system...

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I think Ruth Davidson is beginning to win over new Tory voters.
I heard her on 'Off the Ball' the other weekend and she performed well against a couple of fierce presenters. :lol:
Knows her fitba as well.
She has placed the Scottish Tories apart from Westminster.
I would not be surprised if the Tories win a few seats in 2016.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Arguably, Corbyn's was the most democratic as it's based on one person one vote, .

To a certain extent, but it is probably fair to say that most people in the UK don't belong to a particular party, they might support and vote for it, but they are not members.

Members are often party workers, fervent supporters or canvassers, They tend to be a very vocal minority and often are to the far left or right of whichever party they belong to.and its these people who voted Corbyn in, rather than the casual supporter.

It represents a shift to the Left in the Labour Membership, but that labour membership is possibly out of step with the normal Labour voter

 

[ger147]

To a certain extent, but it is probably fair to say that most people in the UK don't belong to a particular party, they might support and vote for it, but they are not members.

Members are often party workers, fervent supporters or canvassers, They tend to be a very vocal minority and often are to the far left or right of whichever party they belong to.and its these people who voted Corbyn in, rather than the casual supporter.

It represents a shift to the Left in the Labour Membership, but that labour membership is possibly out of step with the normal Labour voter

Not arguing with any of your points re. the membership, but just to be clear you don't have to be a member of the Labour party to vote in their Leadership elections, and many non-members did vote last time out.

Whether they should have is another argument entirely, especially the £3 registered supporters.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I do not see Labour ever getting a full UK majority without the Scottish vote.
At the moment Labour in Scotland are even more toxic than the Tories were under Thatcher.

Both Milliband and Corbyn rejected an 'arrangement' with the SNP.
I can understand Milliband's stance but Corbyn has made a tactical mistake IMO.

Depends on voter apathy, looking at the last GE, Labour were 2 million votes behind, how much the Liberal collapse gave to Lab/Con is difficult to workout next time round, if they regain seats it coukd be to the Conservative detriment, Liberals lost 28 seats, Cons gained 26 and Lab 2,
Conservatives have a good opportunity to strengthen their position, but they too will be having a leadership election if Cameron is true to his word before the GE