I've quit senior golf

[Tashyboy]

I noticed a comp winner at our place, she won with 46 points playing off 37. She shot 91 with an NR on the 10th.

Another girl who Is very good got 37 points playing off-4. She went round in 67 with a back nine of 32 shots. She came 7th. To win she would have had to shoot a 57. The course record is 69.
How do you compete.

 

[Crow]

I play with the seniors, no different to any other group of golfers apart from being more wrinkled.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This is just a total guess, but could they potentially be playing competitions off the back tees and struggling, then the senior matches are off yellow/middle tees where they find it easier?

If the forward tees are that much easier then it’s CR and SI should reflect that and so they would be getting fewer shots than off the back tees.

 

[Orikoru]

If the forward tees are that much easier then it’s CR and SI should reflect that and so they would be getting fewer shots than off the back tees.

I knew someone would say that, but we all know that course ratings are completely made up and half of them are wrong, so my original point may still stand.

 

[rulie]

I knew someone would say that, but we all know that course ratings are completely made up and half of them are wrong, so my original point may still stand.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I knew someone would say that, but we all know that course ratings are completely made up and half of them are wrong, so my original point may still stand.

I think it more likely that many, if not most, senior golfers (especially those aged 70+) play off higher handicaps in the mid-high 20s. WHS handicaps rely upon players to put in sufficient cards for their HI be a fair reflection of their ability. However many senior golfers seem to really not like WHS and so may be reticent to put in many cards - they just like their weekly once or twice rounds without card in hand. This is perhaps no different from golfers of all ages. However when playing in comps where the vast majority of players are of the mid-high 20s handicap variety it is simply a fact of life that many will likely have handicaps unrepresentative of their current ability on any day and the OPs experience becomes a reality.

The issue for me is one of the integrity of the club - both in managing members handicaps and requiring seniors teams to not be loaded with players likely to have unrepresentatively high handicaps. The issue is not of the senior members, they are no different from any age group of members.

 

[Swango1980]

I think it more likely that many, if not most, senior golfers (especially those aged 70+) play off higher handicaps in the mid-high 20s. WHS handicaps rely upon players to put in sufficient cards for their HI be a fair reflection of their ability. However many senior golfers seem to really not like WHS and so may be reticent to put in many cards - they just like their weekly once or twice rounds without card in hand. This is perhaps no different from golfers of all ages. However when playing in comps where the vast majority of players are of the mid-high 20s handicap variety it is simply a fact of life that many will likely have handicaps unrepresentative of their current ability on any day and the OPs experience becomes a reality.

The issue for me is one of the integrity of the club - both in managing members handicaps and requiring seniors teams to not be loaded with players likely to have unrepresentatively high handicaps. The issue is not of the senior members, they are no different from any age group of members.

In general, you'd think that Seniors would be golfers in decline. Thus, if they fail to submit scores for handicap regularly, you'd think their handicaps would generally be too low.

But, perhaps some Seniors are also quite cunning. Been playing the game for decades. Know the tricks of the trade. Put more importance on their golf and less focus on other parts of life (like work as the obvious one). And so are quite good at structuring their golfing life to ensure their handicap doesn't get cut for casual meaningless golf, and is nice and high for more important rounds.

 

[bobmac]

My mate, 40.2 index playing off 45 course hcp had a nett hole in one and a nett zero in the same round. Absolutely ridiculous.

I played against a dutch lady many years ago who had a high handicap (45 ish) and was getting 2 shots on every hole.
She bogeyed the first, nett birdie so I'm one down.
On the 2nd she lipped out with her tee shot and sat a few inches from the hole. Nett 0.
I didn't hit a tee shot as I had already lost the hole.
2 down.
Years later, I learn the maximum h/cap had increased to 54.
I kind of lost interest

 

[Lord Tyrion]

If the forward tees are that much easier then it’s CR and SI should reflect that and so they would be getting fewer shots than off the back tees.

But in reality...........

I think the point about different tees is spot on in this discussion. I know that at my club the difference in shots I received doesn't make enough of a difference. I can compete well off our yellows, I am hanging on at best off whites. The difference in length makes all the difference on some courses, more than the 1-2 extra shots you receive.

 

[AussieKB]

Did he make it , asking for a friend.

No he missed......

 

[Slab]

But in reality...........

I think the point about different tees is spot on in this discussion. I know that at my club the difference in shots I received doesn't make enough of a difference. I can compete well off our yellows, I am hanging on at best off whites. The difference in length makes all the difference on some courses, more than the 1-2 extra shots you receive.

Yup yup yup

I know there's folk out there that its not worth them moving forward to drop a shot or two but for me its an 8 shot difference in playability but a 2 shot diff in CH !
I'm jogging to the forward tee whenever the opportunity is there

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yup yup yup

I know there's folk out there that its not worth them moving forward to drop a shot or two but for me its an 8 shot difference in playability but a 2 shot diff in CH !
I'm jogging to the forward tee whenever the opportunity is there

I agree. Two shot difference for me in CR but at times at my own course it has been three shots…10 to 7. I make the same mistakes off the forward tees as I do off the back and make the same sort of doubles ( and they are not off the tee). Off 7 there is little or no room for me making a double, off 10 I can accommodate one - maybe even two on a good day. Most of our seniors prefer to play off a forward tees and so that’s where the roll ups play off, and most senior comps are off the front. Off a mid 20s forward tee handicap, losing two shots is maybe 8% (12th) reduction; off 10 that two shots is 20% (a 5th) - 3 is getting on for a third. Me no like.

I get the OPs feelings, I’ve suffered the same fate a few times this year in matches, and it’s frustrating…and likewise for the same reason I’m getting a bit fed up playing in my regular roll up and am reluctant to play in most of our midweek roll ups. When I do I am often the lowest or one of the lowest handicappers out of 25-50 players and I play with zero hope or expectation of finishing in the frame. And I struggle with that a bit.

 

[Swango1980]

If people are that convinced that Ratings don't reflect a proper comparison of difficulty between different tees on the same course, then by extension Ratings between different courses entirely are completely incomparable. Thus, Ratings are simply random and portability of handicaps on different courses is impossible.

In reality, I believe it is the mentality of individual golfers, or their specific skill set, that makes them feel Ratings are incorrect, rather than the Ratings actually being incorrect.

A better way to judge would be to evaluate hundreds or thousands of scores from different golfers on a course, to see if those scores reflect Ratings.

Mentally I feel our whites are much harder than the 1 extra shot I get compared to yellows. And I've had a fair few awful rounds on them as well. Mind you, I've also had some of my best scores off whites, whereas I've also played abysmally off yellows. So, what my heart is telling me may be misguided

 

[Backache]

The CR of different courses is meant to reflect the difference in scoring for the average golfer.

I suspect generically seniors differ from the average golfer in that they are shorter and straighter with their shots and longer courses disproportionately punish them and shorter courses reward them relative to their handicap.

 

[Slab]

I agree. Two shot difference for me in CR but at times at my own course it has been three shots…10 to 7. I make the same mistakes off the forward tees as I do off the back and make the same sort of doubles ( and they are not off the tee). Off 7 there is little or no room for me making a double, off 10 I can accommodate one - maybe even two on a good day. Most of our seniors prefer to play off a forward tees and so that’s where the roll ups play off, and most senior comps are off the front. Off a mid 20s forward tee handicap, losing two shots is maybe 8% (12th) reduction; off 10 that two shots is 20% (a 5th) - 3 is getting on for a third. Me no like.

I get the OPs feelings, I’ve suffered the same fate a few times this year in matches, and it’s frustrating…and likewise for the same reason I’m getting a bit fed up playing in my regular roll up and am reluctant to play in most of our midweek roll ups. When I do I am often the lowest or one of the lowest handicappers out of 25-50 players and I play with zero hope or expectation of finishing in the frame. And I struggle with that a bit.

For me it’s about the possibility of par 4 GIRs and distances on Par 3’s.
Only 2 of 8 par 4’s are reachable GIR off medal tees, that changes to 5/8 moving one tee forward. That’s my CH stroke diff more than used up just getting the ball to the green on those 3 holes. That still leaves another 15 more holes I’m able to use a shorter club to play into the greens

As touched on in an earlier post, these seniors are kinda between a rock/hard place. If Senior A plays lots off the medal and the handicap reflects same then move forward for a roll-up they could easily clean up (course dependent) Equally if the index is made up from yellows and comp dictates medal tees, they just cant compete

I believe there's a whole group of players (probably shorter hitting older if not senior) where CR/SR and the stroke difference calculation just doesn't reflect reality

 

[Orikoru]

In general, you'd think that Seniors would be golfers in decline. Thus, if they fail to submit scores for handicap regularly, you'd think their handicaps would generally be too low.

But, perhaps some Seniors are also quite cunning. Been playing the game for decades. Know the tricks of the trade. Put more importance on their golf and less focus on other parts of life (like work as the obvious one). And so are quite good at structuring their golfing life to ensure their handicap doesn't get cut for casual meaningless golf, and is nice and high for more important rounds.

This demographic of golfers are an odd kettle of fish. I've even had it in my knockout matches at my club at times. You'll play against a couple of guys who clearly used to be single figures back in the day, but are now both off 15-17 due to advancing years. However, they'll both chip and putt like Gods still, and in Betterball they absolutely pull your pants down. I remember two years ago losing a Betterball match against a 14 and a 16 whose combined Betterball score was level par gross after 15, did us 4 & 3 and holed every putt all day. It's a tale as old as time.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I quickly formed the view that the yellow tees at my club present a more difficult course at 0.9 under par.
The longer white tees are 0.8 over par and I find desirable score differentials are more easily achieved.

Our weekday comps give us a choice of tee.
Those choosing yellow tees have significantly reduced over the course of this year as many are coming to the same conclusion as me.
Many of those are influenced by the "get-two-more-shots" view, which is not the way I see it, however.

Last week only 3 played in the yellow tee stableford and 24 played in the white tee medal.
On the 8th of July it was 5 yellow and 27 white.

I rarely play in the seniors matches, but when I do, I find no difference in the questionable high handicaps/slow play than younger age groups with some questionably high handicaps and slow play.

If I were to flounce out of something it would be the individual handicap knockout - oh, just remembered, I have done that.

 

[Neilds]

This demographic of golfers are an odd kettle of fish. I've even had it in my knockout matches at my club at times. You'll play against a couple of guys who clearly used to be single figures back in the day, but are now both off 15-17 due to advancing years. However, they'll both chip and putt like Gods still, and in Betterball they absolutely pull your pants down. I remember two years ago losing a Betterball match against a 14 and a 16 whose combined Betterball score was level par gross after 15, did us 4 & 3 and holed every putt all day. It's a tale as old as time.

I would counter this by saying that losing on the 15th means the handicaps (for moth sides) were round about correct.

 

[Orikoru]

I would counter this by saying that losing on the 15th means the handicaps (for moth sides) were round about correct.

How does it? Surely losing on the 18th means they were correct? I played my best round of the entire year that day, but my partner barely turned up so hard to gauge.

 

[Tashyboy]

The difference between our whites and yellow pots 6805 yds against 6305 that’s 500 yards. That’s three shots difference. The difference is massive and not just in terms of length. But the tee positions especially off the par fives.
Every year our fuddle has a “ Discussion “ about what tees to play off,rules etc. There is already talk amongst the lower handicappers to limit the max handicap to 18. So some folk think it is ok for guys in the 70’s to play off whites with a max handicap of 18.
If that happens am out.