Itv leaders debate.

[c1973]

But all parties have policies on immigration. It's just they also have other issues instead of being a one issue party and ukip's immigration policy is the most extreme/racist/sensible to ensure the future of the UK, depending on your point of view.

And as for positive discrimination then I am sure FairwayDodger made a superb defence of it in previous times. I agree that discrimination is discrimination, but one can be a force for good needed to ensure all get a fair chance and one can be a force for evil with the sole purpose of excluding minorities, or worse . And saying they are both the same is very simplistic and ignoring the current and historical context.

I couldn't disagree more.

Completely agree with the rest of the sentence though.

As for being simplistic? Simplistic is not always the wrong way to look at things.

You'll never convince me that positive discrimination is anything other than discrimination, no one will. I'd give my dying breath if it ensured genuine equality for all, but discriminating against anyone to achieve it is wrong, plain and simple.


Any thoughts on my comment regarding the hypocrisy of turning a blind eye to UKIPs 'racism, bigotry etc' and the comparison to turning a blind eye to the 'theft,corruption,abuse of public office' by other parties?

 

[SocketRocket]

I can clear that one up. As it is a change in society that happened since 1978 UKIP will be opposed to it. They have much the same policy on iPhones, coffee shops in the high street and the X Factor. Against the lot of them. Common sense.

I cant quite make out whether you are trying to be funny or facetious, or both. Probably both!

 

[SocketRocket]

The racist, sexist and homophobic quotes from UKIP candidates and officials are a matter of fact. Anyone voting for UKIP either has not heard these quotes (seems unlikely), shares them or is prepared to turn a blind eye to them. Unless you can suggest a fourth option?

How about your paranoia as a fourth!

UKIP want to MANAGE immigration on a needs basis that's controlled with a points system, please explain how that is racist?

Please indicate where in their policy they promote homophobia?

Can you explain which of their policies are Sexist and why?

I would appreciate answers that are factual rather than emotional please.

 

[Old Skier]

Strange, people who have no intention of voting wasted 2 hrs of their lives.

 

[c1973]

Strange, people who have no intention of voting wasted 2 hrs of their lives.

I never watched the programme.

 

[Old Skier]

How about your paranoia as a fourth!

UKIP want to MANAGE immigration.

A number of political parties around the world have wanted to and still do, manage immigration/homosexuals/people of different beliefs and racists. Doesn't end up well.

 

[FairwayDodger]

How about your paranoia as a fourth!

UKIP want to MANAGE immigration on a needs basis that's controlled with a points system, please explain how that is racist?

Please indicate where in their policy they promote homophobia?

Can you explain which of their policies are Sexist and why?

I would appreciate answers that are factual rather than emotional please.

Paranoia, lol, who's getting emotional now? I thought you favoured discussing issues without insulting each other?

I don't believe managing immigration is racist. All I have referred to are quotes from their candidates and officials, not policies. If you don't actually recall those statements it should take you about 10 seconds to google some. These quotes reveal the truth behind the façade.

 

[SocketRocket]

A number of political parties around the world have wanted to and still do, manage immigration/homosexuals/people of different beliefs and racists. Doesn't end up well.

I just dont follow your point! I said "manage immigration on a needs bases controlled with a points system" Whats homosexuality got to do with that?

 

[Old Skier]

I just dont follow your point! I said "manage immigration on a needs bases controlled with a points system" Whats homosexuality got to do with that?

Mine point is, these things don't end well.

 

[Ethan]

How about your paranoia as a fourth!

UKIP want to MANAGE immigration on a needs basis that's controlled with a points system, please explain how that is racist?

Please indicate where in their policy they promote homophobia?

Can you explain which of their policies are Sexist and why?

I would appreciate answers that are factual rather than emotional please.

UKIP desire to MANAGE immigration is based on the notions that:

- there are too many immigrants
- there are the wrong sort of immigrants
- they consume more resources than the contribute
- they are the main cause of the crisis in the NHS
- they cause the terrible traffic on the M4 that stops Dulwich Nigel getting to rabble rousing rallies

Sensible people in possession of facts have shown these to be untrue. There is no significant problem with health tourism in the NHS, indeed the NHS depends on immigrants to provide staff for services to loyal British born, cricket supporting, God Bless Her Majesty hard working families (and other cliches), immigrants make a net contribution to the economy and do many jobs the feckless locals won't do and Nigel just got stuck in traffic - it happens.

The Australian points system resulted in an increase in net migration to Oz, but UKIP have said they want to bring net migration drastically down. That would not be possible unless the points system only allowed in doctors, nurses and the wealthy. But the country needs lots of other skills, and employers need people who will do hard manual work. UKIP adopted the Australian points model only to give the appearance they would use an objective and fair system.

 

[SocketRocket]

Paranoia, lol, who's getting emotional now? I thought you favoured discussing issues without insulting each other?

I don't believe managing immigration is racist. All I have referred to are quotes from their candidates and officials, not policies. If you don't actually recall those statements it should take you about 10 seconds to google some. These quotes reveal the truth behind the façade.

So you refer to tittle tattle rather than policy. If you use such methods with UKIP then do you do the same with all political parties. There are many gems out there from all of them.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

How about your paranoia as a fourth!

UKIP want to MANAGE immigration on a needs basis that's controlled with a points system, please explain how that is racist?

Please indicate where in their policy they promote homophobia?

Can you explain which of their policies are Sexist and why?

I would appreciate answers that are factual rather than emotional please.

Kaz never mentioned anything about policies in regards Sexist , Homophobic or Racist quotes in regards UKIP

Believe Kaz was highlighting the number of UKIP counsellors/members etc who have been shown to display homophobic , racist and sexist views and appears to be common amongst UKIP members.

 

[jp5]

UKIP desire to MANAGE immigration is based on the notions that:

- there are too many immigrants
- there are the wrong sort of immigrants
- they consume more resources than the contribute
- they are the main cause of the crisis in the NHS
- they cause the terrible traffic on the M4 that stops Dulwich Nigel getting to rabble rousing rallies

Sensible people in possession of facts have shown these to be untrue. There is no significant problem with health tourism in the NHS, indeed the NHS depends on immigrants to provide staff for services to loyal British born, cricket supporting, God Bless Her Majesty hard working families (and other cliches), immigrants make a net contribution to the economy and do many jobs the feckless locals won't do and Nigel just got stuck in traffic - it happens.

The Australian points system resulted in an increase in net migration to Oz, but UKIP have said they want to bring net migration drastically down. That would not be possible unless the points system only allowed in doctors, nurses and the wealthy. But the country needs lots of other skills, and employers need people who will do hard manual work. UKIP adopted the Australian points model only to give the appearance they would use an objective and fair system.

If a country is to let in 300,000 people a year - fine with me, no problem with immigrants at all - then it needs to ensure that the country has the infrastructure to cope. And it doesn't - at least in the south east.

Either continue to allow hundreds of thousands of people in a year and, for example, ensure an adequate supply of housing, or shut off the borders. Personally I would prefer the first option, but UKIP seem to be the only party prepared to face the decision.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So you refer to tittle tattle rather than policy. If you use such methods with UKIP then do you do the same with all political parties. There are many gems out there from all of them.

Any forms of Racism , homophobia or sexism isn't "tittle tattle" and to dismiss it as such speaks volumes

 

[FairwayDodger]

So you refer to tittle tattle rather than policy. If you use such methods with UKIP then do you do the same with all political parties. There are many gems out there from all of them.

Nope, I apply insight to UKIP as I do all other parties in order to get beyond the sanitised marketing spin of their manifestos. I take in what the parties say as a whole, rather than restricting myself to their carefully scripted and stage managed performances. It tends to be these unguarded comments that are most telling. UKIP just doesn't stand up to such scrutiny.

 

[SocketRocket]

UKIP desire to MANAGE immigration is based on the notions that:

- there are too many immigrants
- there are the wrong sort of immigrants
- they consume more resources than the contribute
- they are the main cause of the crisis in the NHS
- they cause the terrible traffic on the M4 that stops Dulwich Nigel getting to rabble rousing rallies

Sensible people in possession of facts have shown these to be untrue. There is no significant problem with health tourism in the NHS, indeed the NHS depends on immigrants to provide staff for services to loyal British born, cricket supporting, God Bless Her Majesty hard working families (and other cliches), immigrants make a net contribution to the economy and do many jobs the feckless locals won't do and Nigel just got stuck in traffic - it happens.

The Australian points system resulted in an increase in net migration to Oz, but UKIP have said they want to bring net migration drastically down. That would not be possible unless the points system only allowed in doctors, nurses and the wealthy. But the country needs lots of other skills, and employers need people who will do hard manual work. UKIP adopted the Australian points model only to give the appearance they would use an objective and fair system.

I have previously made the point to you that it's a national disgrace that we poach Medical Staff for the NHS that have been trained by poorer countries rather than train them ourselves. This is also the case with tradesmen and technicians. Regarding unskilled labour. Immigration has lowered wages due to the unlimited supply of low cost labour from abroad.

We need to reduce immigration to a bare minimum while creating opportunities for our young people

 

[c1973]

UKIP desire to MANAGE immigration is based on the notions that:

- there are too many immigrants
- there are the wrong sort of immigrants
- they consume more resources than the contribute
- they are the main cause of the crisis in the NHS
- they cause the terrible traffic on the M4 that stops Dulwich Nigel getting to rabble rousing rallies

Sensible people in possession of facts have shown these to be untrue. There is no significant problem with health tourism in the NHS, indeed the NHS depends on immigrants to provide staff for services to loyal British born, cricket supporting, God Bless Her Majesty hard working families (and other cliches), immigrants make a net contribution to the economy and do many jobs the feckless locals won't do and Nigel just got stuck in traffic - it happens.

The Australian points system resulted in an increase in net migration to Oz, but UKIP have said they want to bring net migration drastically down. That would not be possible unless the points system only allowed in doctors, nurses and the wealthy. But the country needs lots of other skills, and employers need people who will do hard manual work. UKIP adopted the Australian points model only to give the appearance they would use an objective and fair system.

Fail to see why you included my posts with this response. Perhaps you never read them properly? You certainly never addressed any point that I may or may not have been making.

I'm perfectly capable of spotting any flaws in their manifesto for myself thank you very much. I certainly don't need anyone attempting to point them out for me, Especially someone who appears to be insinuating, imo, (albeit very subtly) that I perhaps lack the sense to do so.
I do believe you have 'previous' in attempting to belittle others intellect on here, based on previous posts I have read. So, fill yer boots if that's what floats yer boat.

 

[c1973]

And anyone voting for Conservative, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP etc is prepared to turn a blind eye to corruption, theft and abuse of a public office.

It's interesting (to me anyway) that all those attacking UKIP for previously mentioned points have failed to address the above point (LP aside).
Am I the only one who can see the hypocrisy in condoning UKIP (rightly imo) for comments made while voting for other parties whos MPs have been thieving and abusing public office for (quite possibly) decades?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Obviously to limit immigrants coming into the country would need the UK to control its borders and it's been suggested that an Australian points systems to be used

I understand ( happy to be corrected ) that this won't be allowed whilst we are members of the EU

Farage and his party has stated that closing the borders will save the country £20billion - not sure how he has arrived at this figure and can't see anywhere to find where he gets the figure but the question I have to ask is how much would it cost the country if we were to leave the EU - how many companies would leave the UK , how many jobs would be lost , how much would it effect the finances of the country ?

 

[FairwayDodger]

It's interesting (to me anyway) that all those attacking UKIP for previously mentioned points have failed to address the above point (LP aside).
Am I the only one who can see the hypocrisy in condoning UKIP (rightly imo) for comments made while voting for other parties whos MPs have been thieving and abusing public office for (quite possibly) decades?

Sorry, I thought that was a rhetorical rant. Are you suggesting that people of clear conscience can't vote for any party in the upcoming election?