investing in The future of golf fitness in Germany"s top golf club

[Dibby]

You’re ignoring the predisposition of how each gender is built and being far too simplistic in your views. What times do elite males and elite females set for the 100m? Obviously there is a gender difference and you know there is.

There’s superfit people who are rubbish golfers and very unfit people who are good golfers.

Obviously a level of strength will have a bearing at a basic level but when you look at how slim many of the elite ladies are and how far they hit it you’ve got to come to the conclusion that timing and skill sets them apart.

But equally I can’t see Aphibarnrat, Woosnam or Laura Davies running for a bus but they are, or were, up there with the best.

But golf isn’t a marathon, nor is it a 100m sprint, nor 50 snatch, clean and jerk. It’s a 4 hour walk in the countryside with a bit of aerobics thrown in for a laugh. A bit of gym work will improve flexibility and will add some yards but will it make that much difference in golf?

My whole point is that there is a gender difference. Why do you think this gender difference exists? Is it perhaps that men are stronger, and, heaven forbid strength is actually of importance to be better at golf? If not, why do women not hit the same distance as men? If it's only down to skill and timing, are females naturally less skilful and co-ordinated?
Not sure what the 100m or any other sport you list got to do with it. Men also beat women in those sports because they are stronger, same reason they beat women in golf, but for some reason, we can accept it with the other sports, but not with golf.

What has how fat or slim got to do with fitness? Why can't the slim ladies be strong? Can fat people not be strong or flexible? If we're throwing other sports out there, it's amazing the super slim, lean and muscular guys don't bother entering the Olympics, they'd easily beat those unfit fatties who shot put.

Not that appearance tells us everything, but taking one of your examples do you think that maybe Laura Davies has above average muscle mass for a woman?

If you are trying to say fitness won't make anyone elite if they are not gifted already, I agree, but that's neither my argument nor unique to golf. No amount of training will make an average man get even close to Bolt in the 100m, but it will make him the fastest he can be. Same for golf.

As for how much difference a few yards will make, ask mark Brodie, I bet he has an exact number of strokes the average player would expect to gain per 5 yards or some similar metric. I would bet it is more than you think.
Now if you just consider golf a walk in the countryside, that's a different matter if you don't want to make the effort to be fit, but if you consider it a competitive sport, then you're leaving strokes out there.

 

[SGC001]

My son is a member of the Mens team with average Hcp player is +2. this is a new athletic center built on the range
i would be interesting to here views on this topic

I never understand why clubs attached to gyms dont offer these kind of classes and perhaps more gentle classes like yoga for golfers too.

 

[Deleted member 25172]

Please, read what I wrote. I ask why you thought it was not as important, not why you thought it was not important at all. It's a genuine question, I want to understand why you think so, it's not an attack that you need to get defensive about.

To me it's the same as any other sport, the only difference is the effects are not immediately as visible, if you don't do any training for rugby or football, you will be gasping for breath, whereas in golf you can still play, but not to your true potential and with greater risk of injury.

I've also said before, you can't judge fitness by appearance. What about top weightlifters, or shot putters that look like fat blokes, are they considered to not be fit, because of how they look?

Apologies for late reply.

As already been stated. Golf is, when you think of it, a 4 hour walk on the country side and every few minutes, you wack a stick at a ball. It simply doesn't require the same amount of fitness levels as many other sports do. Would you set yourself up to be a better golfer if you we're in a better physical condition? Yes. But I still don't believe it to be AS big a part as for other sports.

Take Harry Kane and put him on a McDonalds diet and no exercise for a month and then put him in the starting line up and see how that'll work out for him. Now, simply be Pat "I'm not gonna exercise and stop having a bad diet" Perez. He can still compete with the best on his day. Has he reached his true potential? No, most likely not, but, at the end of the day, you can be a fat blob and play great golf.

You also can't be pushing 50 in many other sports and still be up with the best in the world. You can in golf, cause the skill levels outweighs the fitness part.

Many weightlifters are fit for the purpose, but take them to the doctors and I'm not sure the verdicts from the tests would tell you that.

 

[Deleted member 25172]

Lilyhawk, I totally agree with you in that fitness in golf and whether or not it’s as important as other areas is not a black and white issue. I would, however, stand by the fact that improving one’s fitness both generally and specifically ‘could’ and ‘would’ improve your overall game. Is it more important than specific skills and drills with clubs and ball, is it more important than actual game time? Only you as an individual can really answer that one. Like I said earlier, I believe personally that by being fit and continuing to work on my fitness it has helped me get to the level I’m at now and allows me to focus solely on hitting golf shots when I’m out on the course (which as it happens is where I am right now, so for fear of upsetting others I’ll end here 😀). All the best C.P.B

I agree. To be fit will most likely improve your game, but I don't believe it to make as big a difference as being fit vs not being fit would do with your performance in other more physically demanding sports.

 

[SGC001]

I think people are underestimating the fitness part if people are wanting to become top level pros now or in the future, particuarly with course designers and set ups seemingly stuck in the lets set it up longer over risk and reward or tighter set ups, only favours big hitters.

A full swing requires something like 2 horse power of work to be done. Its around 95% maximal effort. Weightlifters may train at 3 sets of 6 at around 90% max weight. You may make 30 plus swings in 4 hours thats a lot.

Having said that monty suffered with changing his body shape negatively affecting his swing tempo and results so he put weight back on.

Its still skill over fitness, but top level you need to be an athlete to compete with the way its going, but thats fit for golf not other sports.

A lot of sports are looking at general fitness over early specialisation now, with problems with burnout and overuse injuries. Golf with weight bearing, hyperextension and the other one that escapes me right now does have the potential to cause bad backs like bowling in cricket. Its also very 1 sided so i'd be swinging the other way too to help counterbalance.

The exercises in the video were pretty good for golf, but i'd limit what i did before physical maturity.

 

[Dibby]

Apologies for late reply.

As already been stated. Golf is, when you think of it, a 4 hour walk on the country side and every few minutes, you wack a stick at a ball. It simply doesn't require the same amount of fitness levels as many other sports do. Would you set yourself up to be a better golfer if you we're in a better physical condition? Yes. But I still don't believe it to be AS big a part as for other sports.

Take Harry Kane and put him on a McDonalds diet and no exercise for a month and then put him in the starting line up and see how that'll work out for him. Now, simply be Pat "I'm not gonna exercise and stop having a bad diet" Perez. He can still compete with the best on his day. Has he reached his true potential? No, most likely not, but, at the end of the day, you can be a fat blob and play great golf.

You also can't be pushing 50 in many other sports and still be up with the best in the world. You can in golf, cause the skill levels outweighs the fitness part.

Many weightlifters are fit for the purpose, but take them to the doctors and I'm not sure the verdicts from the tests would tell you that.

You can always find an exception, what about Maradona or Ronaldo in their fat stages? They overcame a lack of fitness with skill, but it wasn't the best version of them. Same applies to golf.

I think in golf, the age of being competitive is going to drop. Over the last 20 years the average age of the top 100 in the world has dropped about 5 years.

I thought the whole conversation was about being fit for purpose, not necessarily healthy. Most elite athletes are unhealthy. Sport generally has a curve where when you initially become healthier by participating, but the higher the level of competition reached, that drops off and health reduces.

To be honest, it doesn't sound like we really disagree that much.

 

[Jacko_G]

I think people are underestimating the fitness part if people are wanting to become top level pros now or in the future, particuarly with course designers and set ups seemingly stuck in the lets set it up longer over risk and reward or tighter set ups, only favours big hitters.

A full swing requires something like 2 horse power of work to be done. Its around 95% maximal effort. Weightlifters may train at 3 sets of 6 at around 90% max weight. You may make 30 plus swings in 4 hours thats a lot.

Having said that monty suffered with changing his body shape negatively affecting his swing tempo and results so he put weight back on.

Its still skill over fitness, but top level you need to be an athlete to compete with the way its going, but thats fit for golf not other sports.

A lot of sports are looking at general fitness over early specialisation now, with problems with burnout and overuse injuries. Golf with weight bearing, hyperextension and the other one that escapes me right now does have the potential to cause bad backs like bowling in cricket. Its also very 1 sided so i'd be swinging the other way too to help counterbalance.

The exercises in the video were pretty good for golf, but i'd limit what i did before physical maturity.

I'm not sure where this started to go off track (maybe I'm reading it wrong!) I'm not sure anyone is disagreeing that top level sports people including golfers are acutely aware of the health and fitness benefits to keep them at the top of their chosen sport for as long as possible. I get that.

I'm just not convinced that I need a ripped six pack and be able to run 26 miles three times a week in order to play to my handicap in the monthly medal. I have a "moderate" fitness level considering my age and health, yes it could be improved but I'm sure it won't suddenly have me shooting 4 under my handicap every week. I am also fully aware of the effects of dehydration and the need to fuel on the course at times so I'm happy how I am.

 

[Dibby]

I'm not sure where this started to go off track (maybe I'm reading it wrong!) I'm not sure anyone is disagreeing that top level sports people including golfers are acutely aware of the health and fitness benefits to keep them at the top of their chosen sport for as long as possible. I get that.

I'm just not convinced that I need a ripped six pack and be able to run 26 miles three times a week in order to play to my handicap in the monthly medal. I have a "moderate" fitness level considering my age and health, yes it could be improved but I'm sure it won't suddenly have me shooting 4 under my handicap every week. I am also fully aware of the effects of dehydration and the need to fuel on the course at times so I'm happy how I am.

I think the issue I have is that noone is suggesting the bold, certainly I am not. That's just a bit silly.

However, for a non-elite player doing a 30 mins gym routine 3 or 4 times a week could have a significant impact on scoring and resilience to avoid injury.

 

[Jacko_G]

I think the issue I have is that noone is suggesting the bold, certainly I am not. That's just a bit silly.

However, for a non-elite player doing a 30 mins gym routine 3 or 4 times a week could have a significant impact on scoring and resilience to avoid injury.

And that bit in bold is the crux.

And an hours lesson/practice hitting balls I'd argue would have a greater impact on scoring which in golf is what its all about.

Also as I explained earlier in the thread, not everyone can do gym work, running etc.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I think the issue I have is that noone is suggesting the bold, certainly I am not. That's just a bit silly.

However, for a non-elite player doing a 30 mins gym routine 3 or 4 times a week could have a significant impact on scoring and resilience to avoid injury.

What proof is there of that? I see and read of elite athletes going down with injuries all the time, and it seems to me you are either prone to injury or not regardless of how fit you may be.

 

[Dibby]

What proof is there of that? I see and read of elite athletes going down with injuries all the time, and it seems to me you are either prone to injury or not regardless of how fit you may be.

Elite athletes are a different kettle of fish, they are pushing the limits, but actually, most of their injuries are caused by overuse.

Non-elite golfers suffer more injuries from trying to do movements that their bodies are incapable of.

Key points from below study:

Results:
Injuries may be associated with lack of warm-up, poor trunk flexibility and strength, faulty swing technique, and overuse.
Conclusions:
Implementing a training program that includes flexibility, strength, and power training with correction of faulty swing mechanics will help the golfer reduce the likelihood of injury and improve overall performance.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445090/

 

[Dibby]

And that bit in bold is the crux.

And an hours lesson/practice hitting balls I'd argue would have a greater impact on scoring which in golf is what its all about.

Also as I explained earlier in the thread, not everyone can do gym work, running etc.

It depends if the individual already has adequate strength, mobility etc..

A 20 year old who has come from another sport probably benefit more from technique than fitness compared to a 60 year old who has been playing golf for 35 years.

Not everyone being able to work out doesn't reduce the importance of fitness. It may exclude those individuals from training, which is understandable, but it doesn't automatically make training a pointless activity for the majority of the population.

 

[Capella]

Mostly due to the Instragramification of the fitness world, there is a weird misconception nowadays, that a person needs to be skinny to be "fit". This is not true. While being massivly overweight of course can cause health problems, you don't need to look like a supermodel (or an Instagram "fitness" icon) to be incredibly fit and an extra layer of body fat does not hinder your progress at all. Most people who make fun of athletes like Aphibarnrat or "Maradonna in his fat stage" would very likely still lose out against them in any kind of fitness contest, and that includes strength as well as speed and agility. Looks can be very misleading in that department. I am pretty sure that there is not a single professional football player or PGA/LPGA tour golfer out there, who is not incredibly fit compared to the average population and also compared to most amateur athletes. It just comes with the territory.

 

[patricks148]

It depends if the individual already has adequate strength, mobility etc..

A 20 year old who has come from another sport probably benefit more from technique than fitness compared to a 60 year old who has been playing golf for 35 years.

Not everyone being able to work out doesn't reduce the importance of fitness. It may exclude those individuals from training, which is understandable, but it doesn't automatically make training a pointless activity for the majority of the population.

there was a Swede playing on the PGA tour a few years ago, was right up there and won a few. then lost all his weight and there was plenty of it, when he came back couldn't swing a club and never seen again, can't remember what his name was Petterson maybe??

 

[Deleted member 25172]

there was a Swede playing on the PGA tour a few years ago, was right up there and won a few. then lost all his weight and there was plenty of it, when he came back couldn't swing a club and never seen again, can't remember what his name was Petterson maybe??

Carl "Big Dog" Pettersson.

 

[Dibby]

there was a Swede playing on the PGA tour a few years ago, was right up there and won a few. then lost all his weight and there was plenty of it, when he came back couldn't swing a club and never seen again, can't remember what his name was Petterson maybe??

Now we are back to fitness not being visibly measurable. Someone can be fat and fit for their sport.

Additionally, why was he out? Presumably not just to lose weight, so what other factors were at play?

 

[patricks148]

Now we are back to fitness not being visibly measurable. Someone can be fat and fit for their sport.

Additionally, why was he out? Presumably not just to lose weight, so what other factors were at play?

it was a few years ago so don't remember the details, but he was a fat bugger, lost the weight then was crap, i don't thing he ever featured again. Swedish guy who had gone to the States as a kid.

 

[patricks148]

Carl "Big Dog" Pettersson.

that was him, probably called that because he could wolf down a big hot dog

 

[Bunkermagnet]

isnt this really just another excuse to body shame? When people talk about healthy and fit, they automatically assume slim and ripped.
One of the fittest chaps I have known was a 50 something window fitter. He was very rotund, probably around 2 or 3 stone overweight. He had been a motocross rider and disco dancer in his younger days, and at the time was leading the mountain bike club I was in and he could ride for miles and hours.
We used to race endurance stuff , randonee's and the like. One day he was doing an organised race come ride, and had a heart attck (he had burst an artery). He rode back to the event start,(yes I did say rode back) and was then rushed into hospital. He had heart surgery and was all fixed up. The doctors told him he was way overweight and unhealthy and dismissed him as a fat old git.
His resting heart rate was 42. Now I understand heart rates, and to have a resting heart rate that low isnt unfit especially considering his physical job, and ability to ride for hours at pace.

 

[Bit of rough]

I spent a few holes at the US Open qualifying at Walton Heath last year following a touring pro who's well known for appearing very far from athletic; you may guess who I mean. Up close though, his waist really wasn't that big. The way he turned back and through the ball was so smooth, you could tell his body was hugely flexible. And blimey, he was physically so strong. I've little doubt he seriously works at his fitness, despite appearances.

I forget where, but I read an article a few months ago by a physical trainer, comparing Jon Rahm with another PGA tour pro, smaller and slimmer, with essentially the same driver clubhead speed; it may have been Justin Thomas. The trainer made the point that given the extra weight Rahm has to move to generate his speed, he has to use an awful lot more energy to get the same effect.

At amateur level, my hunch is that fitness isn't key, but it certainly helps. Stretching and staying flexible has improved my swing significantly; I can get into better positions without any strain. Getting my right shoulder to rotate backwards past vertical makes a big difference to the top of the backswing and avoiding coming over the top. Working on balance helps too; no more leaning towards the toes during the transition and downswing, moving the club off plane. And a bit of general strength work makes staying in posture easier, keeps things stable and, maybe, might speed the swing up a little over time.