In the bunker or not?

[backwoodsman]

At the weekend, I played a shot from a greenside bunker and ball failed to make it on to the green. After a bit of head scratching it was eventually found in a small hole, sort of in the face of the bunker, just under the the grass surrounding the bunker. Hole was about 4 inches, wide and deep, and about 3inches high and I've no idea what made it or how it was made. May have been a burrowing animal, but might not have been. From above, ball was just visible through the thin turf and was about 2inches forward of the edge of the grass. Hope the image below explains.

Ball was definitely unplayable - but where would I drop? Was the ball in the bunker therefore I have to drop in bunker. Is it not in the bunker and I can drop as far back on a line as I like? Thoughts?

 

[williamalex1]

At the weekend, I played a shot from a greenside bunker and ball failed to make it on to the green. After a bit of head scratching it was eventually found in a small hole, sort of in the face of the bunker, just under the the grass surrounding the bunker. Hole was about 4 inches, wide and deep, and about 3inches high and I've no idea what made it or how it was made. May have been a burrowing animal, but might not have been. From above, ball was just visible through the thin turf and was about 2inches forward of the edge of the grass. Hope the image below explains.

Ball was definitely unplayable - but where would I drop? Was the ball in the bunker therefore I have to drop in bunker. Is it not in the bunker and I can drop as far back on a line as I like? Thoughts?

View attachment 7861

I would think you can't go back further than the point your last shot was played from , if that was from the bunker you should drop in the bunker as near as possible to that spot.

I'm thinking of the problem Tiger had by dropping to far back. The experts will be along shortly , they always wait till some numpty like me gets it wrong.:thup:

 

[rulefan]

As the margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, your diagram suggests the ball is not in the bunker but through the green.
If it is a hole made by a burrowing animal you get relief under 25-1b(i), otherwise penalty relief under 28.
Both of which would let you get clear of the bunker.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-25/

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-28/

 

[pbrown7582]

Anyone remember what was the reason westy had to drop in the bunker at last years us open (i think) after ball was embbeded in face in similar fashion?

 

[rulefan]

The ball was in the face, not underground beyond the vertical line of the margin.

A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker. The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards.

A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker.

 

[woody69]

I would think you can't go back further than the point your last shot was played from , if that was from the bunker you should drop in the bunker as near as possible to that spot.

I'm thinking of the problem Tiger had by dropping to far back. The experts will be along shortly , they always wait till some numpty like me gets it wrong.:thup:

Not true AFAIK. One of the options for an unplayable lie is you can drop it back as far as you like in a line that keeps that spot directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, using the spot where the ball lies unplayable as your reference (providing it is deemed he isn't in the bunker), which from his diagram appears to be the case.

The issue Tiger had is completely different as he was taking relief from a water hazard.

 

[Colin L]

That is correct - as far back as you can go - except when your ball is in a bunker in which case you can go as far back along that line as you can but must drop in the bunker

 

[williamalex1]

The ball was in the face, not underground beyond the vertical line of the margin.

A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker. The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards.

A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker.

Looks as if the ball is embedded in the wall or lip of the bunker which is not covered with grass and under the turf above so its still in the bunker .

 

[woody69]

Looks as if the ball is embedded in the wall or lip of the bunker which is not covered with grass and under the turf above so its still in the bunker .

But it's covered with grass and therefore not part of the bunker no?

Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker

 

[williamalex1]

But it's covered with grass and therefore not part of the bunker no?

Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker

see post 5

 

[rulefan]

see post 5

That was in response to post #4. In that case the ball was embedded in the face itself.

In the original post the ball was not embedded in the face. It had passed beyond the face and is outside the margin of the bunker.

 

[williamalex1]

That was in response to post #4. In that case the ball was embedded in the face itself.

In the original post the ball was not embedded in the face. It had passed beyond the face and is outside the margin of the bunker.

Would this apply to any bunker shot that embedded in the face, just far enough to be beyond the flush / margin of the bunker face .
With no[ burrowed] holes involved. ?

 

[Colin L]

If all of the ball is beyond a line drawn vertically downwards from the margin of the bunker, it is not in the bunker. The only difference if it is not in a hole made by a burrowing animal is that there is no free relief. If you have to deem the ball unplayable and choose the option of dropping within 2 club lengths, the point of reference from which the 2 clublengths is measured is the spot on the ground vertically above where the ball lies.

 

[pogle]

If all of the ball is beyond a line drawn vertically downwards from the margin of the bunker, it is not in the bunker. The only difference if it is not in a hole made by a burrowing animal is that there is no free relief. If you have to deem the ball unplayable and choose the option of dropping within 2 club lengths, the point of reference from which the 2 clublengths is measured is the spot on the ground vertically above where the ball lies.

Decision 13/4 states that an embedded ball is considered to be lying in the part of the course where it entered the gr.ound.
My take on that is that if it entered the earth covered face of the bunker then it lies in the bunker.

 

[Colin L]

Pogle
The OP described a ball that had gone into a small hole rather than one that had embedded in the face of the bunker. My reply above is about a ball in a hole.

 

[backwoodsman]

Thanks all for the views. Funny how these always divide opinion. I was of the view that it was no longer in the bunker so could drop on a line behind it - but FCs were of opinion i had to drop in bunker, to which I deferred. Was only a casual game, and blobbed it anyway so no harm done.

 

[pogle]

Pogle
The OP described a ball that had gone into a small hole rather than one that had embedded in the face of the bunker. My reply above is about a ball in a hole.

Colin,

Sorry, I've quoted the wrong post in my reply - I should have quoted WilliamAlex's post immediately before yours.

 

[Colin L]

Colin,

Sorry, I've quoted the wrong post in my reply - I should have quoted WilliamAlex's post immediately before yours.

Then we're both right

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Must surely be a fairly common occurance where a bunker has a revetted face.

 

[Colin L]

If the face is revetted it is not part of the bunker.