In or Out?

[Deleted member 1147]

All the discussion has made me question the ruling, and I’ve changed my mind. It must be in bounds, i written to the match and handicap secretary to amend some of my old scores.
I’m now club champion, autumn cup winner, and junior medal winner from 1996. ?

 

[Swango1980]

Your course sounds about 100x fancier than mine! A winter tee area is something of dreams for our members

When I said Winter tee area, I really meant a pair of yellow markers dropped on the fairway next to the tee box. Well, that was my last club. My new club actually does have winter tee areas. Proper fancy

 

[Bdill93]

When I said Winter tee area, I really meant a pair of yellow markers dropped on the fairway next to the tee box. Well, that was my last club. My new club actually does have winter tee areas. Proper fancy

Oh we have one of those on our 8th actually to be fair!

One small benefit of our club is that is was once a 9 hole course with 2 tee boxes per hole, now we have purchased 9 holes from the old council course nect door we have a full 18. So they just rotate you from the two tees every week on the front 9.

Downside our tees are totally on the wonk

 

[Blue in Munich]

So you misunderstood the question then. I did not ask on what basis what a DQ be the correct ruling. You said I would end up with a DQ and I asked how that would happen if nobody in the group realised a rule had been broken. I didn't ask you to parrot the rule back to me for the 8th time.

Maybe he was hoping it would finally stick?

 

[phillarrow]

I realise that not everyone is enjoying this discussion ? but I'm personally finding it very helpful, and I have another question - If it was a small trench where the taller grass is, following the same line, would the trench be classed as the club defining the OOB, or would that still have to be written on the card?

In case that's not clear, what I mean is, imagine there's a curved trench with white posts spread out along it. Would the OOB always still be a straight line between the posts unless something on the card states that it's the trench?

 

[Foxholer]

I realise that not everyone is enjoying this discussion ? but I'm personally finding it very helpful, and I have another question - If it was a small trench where the taller grass is, following the same line, would the trench be classed as the club defining the OOB, or would that still have to be written on the card?

In case that's not clear, what I mean is, imagine there's a curved trench with white posts spread out along it. Would the OOB always still be a straight line between the posts unless something on the card states that it's the trench?

Far better to state that 'the trench denotes OOB' (or better) on the card. The stakes would then merely indicate that there's OB in the area - which could also be stated on the card. Of course, both in a better way than I've stated though, There's sure to be a standard wording available.

 

[Jimaroid]

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/committee-procedures/2

• A boundary may be defined by a trench, with the ball being out of bounds if it is in or beyond the trench. Stakes may be used to draw attention to the boundary trench. These stakes are boundary objects from which free relief is not available unless otherwise specified in the Local Rules (see Model Local Rule A-5).

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/committee-procedures/8a#a-5

• Stakes Identifying Out of Bounds

• Purpose. When out of bounds is defined by a line on the ground, a trench or in another way that might not be visible from a distance, the Committee may place stakes along the boundary to allow players to see where the boundary edge is from a distance.
• Boundary objects are not permitted to be moved and free relief is generally not given, but the Committee may provide for relief from these stakes through the following Model Local Rule, which should also clarify the status of these stakes.
• It is recommended that such stakes be marked differently than other boundary stakes on the course, for example, white stakes with black tops may be used for this purpose.
• Model Local Rule A-5
• "Where a boundary is defined by [identify boundary, for example, a white line painted on the ground], white stakes with black tops have been placed for visibility. These stakes [describe any special marking] are [immovable | movable] obstructions."

 

[Orikoru]

Maybe he was hoping it would finally stick?

Wasn't asking him what the rulebook says though, that was established a long time ago.

 

[Foxholer]

So kind of like this you mean??

View attachment 42057

Yeah, I'd have ruled myself out of bounds there to be honest.

You won't in future though will you!
So something has been gained by the 'discussion'!
Oh...And I hope you'd mention the instance of shoddy marking to someone capable of passing the message to get it changed!

 

[Foxholer]

I wonder how many people see a set of yellow tees in the winter teeing area, especially at this time of year, and yet decide to tee off the main tee box anyway? Why? Because, in their opinion, the clubs intention was to probably have the tee markers on the main tee, but the green staff forgot to change them back.

I'd consider it far more likely that GKs have deliberately put them there for protection of the main box! I believe that, generally, clubs cede placement of tees to GK's anyway - as that's their area of expertise. Players should 'play the course as found'!

 

[phillarrow]

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/committee-procedures/2

• A boundary may be defined by a trench, with the ball being out of bounds if it is in or beyond the trench. Stakes may be used to draw attention to the boundary trench. These stakes are boundary objects from which free relief is not available unless otherwise specified in the Local Rules (see Model Local Rule A-5).

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/committee-procedures/8a#a-5

• Stakes Identifying Out of Bounds

• Purpose. When out of bounds is defined by a line on the ground, a trench or in another way that might not be visible from a distance, the Committee may place stakes along the boundary to allow players to see where the boundary edge is from a distance.
• Boundary objects are not permitted to be moved and free relief is generally not given, but the Committee may provide for relief from these stakes through the following Model Local Rule, which should also clarify the status of these stakes.
• It is recommended that such stakes be marked differently than other boundary stakes on the course, for example, white stakes with black tops may be used for this purpose.
• Model Local Rule A-5
• "Where a boundary is defined by [identify boundary, for example, a white line painted on the ground], white stakes with black tops have been placed for visibility. These stakes [describe any special marking] are [immovable | movable] obstructions."

That's what I quoted several pages ago. ?‍

So if there was a trench and the stakes were white with black tops, would we make the assumption that the trench is OOB, as opposed to going by straight lines between posts? And would this be the case even if there was nothing on the card specifically saying so?

 

[Jimaroid]

So if there was a trench and the stakes were white with black tops, would we make the assumption that the trench is OOB, as opposed to going by straight lines between posts? And would this be the case even if there was nothing on the card specifically saying so?

Apologies but it's the same application. You can't really assume, the committee has to define it. So if it's not written on the scorecard and there's no way to find out the situation of how to proceed on course you're back into the play two balls scenario.

 

[phillarrow]

Apologies but it's the same application. You can't really assume, the committee has to define it. So if it's not written on the scorecard and there's no way to find out the situation of how to proceed on course you're back into the play two balls scenario.

Cheers Jim. ?

 

[Colin L]

So you misunderstood the question then. I did not ask on what basis what a DQ be the correct ruling. You said I would end up with a DQ and I asked how that would happen if nobody in the group realised a rule had been broken. I didn't ask you to parrot the rule back to me for the 8th time.

Yet more invention. That is the first time in this thread anyone has explained the outcome of playing a ball that was thought to be on the course but was actually out of bounds.

It seems all you were asking for was agreement with the glaringly obvious point that if no-one knows that a rule has been breached, nothing has happened and there are no consequences. Sadly, I naively thought you were actually looking for elucidation of what happens if you play an out of bounds ball. Silly me.

 

[Colin L]

Apologies but it's the same application. You can't really assume, the committee has to define it. So if it's not written on the scorecard and there's no way to find out the situation of how to proceed on course you're back into the play two balls scenario.

In my understanding, the Committee has to define all ways in which the course boundary is defined, including the use of stakes.

 

[Jimaroid]

In my understanding, the Committee has to define all ways in which the course boundary is defined, including the use of stakes.

I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise, merely that you can’t assume what a stake with black top means universally - it has to be defined by committee and might be done different by different committees/courses.

In essence I was trying to say if it’s not stated don’t assume. And don’t invent!?

 

[Colin L]

Far better to state that 'the trench denotes OOB' (or better) on the card. The stakes would then merely indicate that there's OB in the area - which could also be stated on the card. Of course, both in a better way than I've stated though, There's sure to be a standard wording available.

Along the lines of "In or beyond the ditch on the left of the 5th fairway".

 

[clubchamp98]

I realise that not everyone is enjoying this discussion ? but I'm personally finding it very helpful, and I have another question - If it was a small trench where the taller grass is, following the same line, would the trench be classed as the club defining the OOB, or would that still have to be written on the card?

In case that's not clear, what I mean is, imagine there's a curved trench with white posts spread out along it. Would the OOB always still be a straight line between the posts unless something on the card states that it's the trench?

We have one like this where the markers must be behind the trench as that is the oob line.
On or touching the trench was out.

Just for asking sake in the op if he found a oob stake in the long grass would the line be drawn to that.
Or if there is a hole where it was clearly situated is he allowed to replace it.?

Sometimes it’s not the clubs fault ,at my last place the kids used to remove the posts and just throw them in the long grass

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Ive seen players do what Orikoru has suggested and never thought anything the wiser as it seemed the common sense approach. How wrong I was!

There are a good number of rules in golf which don't involve common sense. It's one of the quirks of the game, one of the reasons the rules cause much head scratching.

It's well worth dipping into this section every so often to pick up advice.

 

[Swango1980]

I'd consider it far more likely that GKs have deliberately put them there for protection of the main box! I believe that, generally, clubs cede placement of tees to GK's anyway - as that's their area of expertise. Players should 'play the course as found'!

I was being sarcastic, should have done one of these