In or Out?

[Swango1980]

1. We were talking about a hypothetical ball from bobmac's mocked image when I said that, not the actual ball in the photo.
2. I was talking about my initial reaction when I'd arrived at the ball. If it had been on the mown grass (again, as indicated in bobmac's image) I wouldn't have thought about straight lines between white posts, I would simply played my shot as normal and not even considered that it might be out of bounds. As in the post above this one, my assumption would have been the posts are just indicating that the line between mown grass and the crap beyond it is the boundary line.

Don't worry though, discussing this thread has been enjoyable for me, and given me some food for thought if I'm ever faced with a situation like this where the white markers are unsatisfactory.

1. It doesn't matter if it was hypothetical, it was a perfectly realistic scenario.
2. Had the comment you made happened at the very start of the thread, then I would have sympathy with this. In fact, my very first comment (#3) ended by suggesting many golfers would incorrectly feel this way, hence why it should probably be marked better. However, you seemed to continue to take this stance well into the thread, after it had already been clarified that it was out of bounds. This is when the thread started to descend into what line to use, and the definition of a line, etc.

Hopefully, if this situation DID occur to you in the future, or anyone in your group, you'd deem the ball out of bounds.

 

[Orikoru]

1. It doesn't matter if it was hypothetical, it was a perfectly realistic scenario.
2. Had the comment you made happened at the very start of the thread, then I would have sympathy with this. In fact, my very first comment (#3) ended by suggesting many golfers would incorrectly feel this way, hence why it should probably be marked better. However, you seemed to continue to take this stance well into the thread, after it had already been clarified that it was out of bounds. This is when the thread started to descend into what line to use, and the definition of a line, etc.

Hopefully, if this situation DID occur to you in the future, or anyone in your group, you'd deem the ball out of bounds.

I was just rolling with the punches, as is my wont - people didn't seem to understand my point of view. In saying that I meant for myself and quite a lot of golfers, you'd arrive there, and not even consider it a possibility that it was out of bounds, let alone wondering if you had to draw a straight line between the stakes or whatever. You'd be in the wrong by the letter of the law but you'd never even know.

I never told anybody to debate what's a straight line and what isn't. You'll notice I gave it a wide berth during that section. Nobody in the right mind would think you have to draw a curved line for the sake of it, the whole point of that was that you might reasonably assume the mown grass is the boundary, not a randomly imagined curved line for goodness sake.

 

[Colin L]

if any and all visible white stakes were on the line between grass and rubbish (and the one stake one can see in the picture is situated there) it would not be at all unreasonable to assume that they are indicating that line of cut grass to be the boundary.
In the absence of anything in the local rules defining the boundary there to be the edge of the cut grass, it would be entirely unreasonable because there is absolutely nothing in the rule book to justify that conclusion.

To assume a straight line between posts that cuts off a large portion of perfectly playable mown grass to me seems illogical.
It is not an assumption; it is clearly what the rules say as you grudgingly(?) go on to say
but apparently that is what we're supposed to interpret from the rules,
indeed so and it is a such a remarkably straightforward interpretation of one of the most commonly applied rules in the book that I'm astonished that you don't seem to know it properly.
and put our bad luck down to unsatisfactory work by the greenkeepers/committee of the club .
Not knowing the rule isn't bad luck, it's bad preparation for the game you play and to go on to blame the outcome of your not knowing a basic rule on someone else is incredible.

But no worries, it's just a game and the sky won't fall down because you get it wrong.
In this instance, though, it would cost you a DQ in a medal.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This is what I was saying! The last two pages about straight and curved lines has descended into farce to be honest. But if any and all visible white stakes were on the line between grass and rubbish (and the one stake one can see in the picture is situated there) it would not be at all unreasonable to assume that they are indicating that line of cut grass to be the boundary. To assume a straight line between posts that cuts off a large portion of perfectly playable mown grass to me seems illogical, but apparently that is what we're supposed to interpret from the rules, and put our bad luck down to unsatisfactory work by the greenkeepers/committee of the club.

I know it was ?? And I agreed with you.

We would both have assumed the ball was not OOB and if we were subsequently asked what we had done, we would most likely discover we had been wrong and would be penalised accordingly.

But we might find out from the club that our instinctive assumption was correct…and that the boundary was indeed round the edge of the cut grass. What then? Do the positions of the posts supersede the club‘s intention in respect of OOB?

 

[Steve Wilkes]

1. It doesn't matter if it was hypothetical, it was a perfectly realistic scenario.
2. Had the comment you made happened at the very start of the thread, then I would have sympathy with this. In fact, my very first comment (#3) ended by suggesting many golfers would incorrectly feel this way, hence why it should probably be marked better. However, you seemed to continue to take this stance well into the thread, after it had already been clarified that it was out of bounds. This is when the thread started to descend into what line to use, and the definition of a line, etc.

Hopefully, if this situation DID occur to you in the future, or anyone in your group, you'd deem the ball out of bounds.

I'm with Orikoru on this.
Arriving at the ball in the mock up of ball A & B, It wouldn't even enter my head whether ball B is OOB or not. but if someone pointed out that it was, I wouldn't automatically deem it OOB or automatically deem it in bounds.
More info is needed
1) has a post(s) been knicked, fallen down, does the OOB end on the first post and a new area of OOB start on the 2nd post many yards away, who knows
2) did I look at the local rules posted in the clubhouse stating where the OOB is on that hole.
I'd play two balls (legal in the rules) and try and find a definite answer later.

The ball in the original post would get me thinking straight away is this OOB as it's very close, but the same outcome. play two balls

 

[Orikoru]

But no worries, it's just a game and the sky won't fall down because you get it wrong.
In this instance, though, it would cost you a DQ in a medal.

As usual you seem to be labouring under the illusion that everybody either knows the rulebook like the back of their hand or refers to it every five minutes. Spoiler for you: they don't. If nobody in the group even realised there was potential for it to be out of bounds, then how exactly would one of them end up disqualified?

 

[RichA]

As usual you seem to be labouring under the illusion that everybody either knows the rulebook like the back of their hand or refers to it every five minutes. Spoiler for you: they don't. If nobody in the group even realised there was potential for it to be out of bounds, then how exactly would one of them end up disqualified?

You aren't seriously just going to the golf course to enjoy yourself are you?

 

[rosecott]

I was just rolling with the punches, as is my wont - people didn't seem to understand my point of view. In saying that I meant for myself and quite a lot of golfers, you'd arrive there, and not even consider it a possibility that it was out of bounds, let alone wondering if you had to draw a straight line between the stakes or whatever. You'd be in the wrong by the letter of the law but you'd never even know.

I never told anybody to debate what's a straight line and what isn't. You'll notice I gave it a wide berth during that section. Nobody in the right mind would think you have to draw a curved line for the sake of it, the whole point of that was that you might reasonably assume the mown grass is the boundary, not a randomly imagined curved line for goodness sake.

I don't know how you can make such a statement. If your ball goes anywhere near where you can see white posts signifying OOB, surely your first thought must be "am I in bounds or out". You don't think "that's a nice lie, I'll give that a whack", you check..

 

[rulie]

Again, this is a Rules of golf forum, where we discuss the Rules of golf. In this situation, the ball is out of bounds according to the Rules of golf, unless there is something on the scorecard/clubhouse Local Rules indicating otherwise (which nobody has investigated/confirmed). It really is that simple!
One would expect that those playing the game of golf would at least have a rudimentary understanding of some of the basic Rules of the game (maybe come here to learn some of them?).

 

[Colin L]

As usual you seem to be labouring under the illusion that everybody either knows the rulebook like the back of their hand or refers to it every five minutes. Spoiler for you: they don't. If nobody in the group even realised there was potential for it to be out of bounds, then how exactly would one of them end up disqualified?

Come off it. In no way would I expect everyone to know the rule book like the back of their hand, but knowing when your ball is out of bounds is absolutely basic. If no-one in your group knows that a ball which is lying in an area beyond white posts has the "potential" to be out of bounds, what can be said? It's almost like a group of footballers not knowing that a ball lying over the line in the goalmouth has the potential to be a goal.

If your ball goes out of bounds and you play it from there, you have played a wrong ball. You are then required to correct that - in this case by going back and playing stroke and distance. That costs you two strokes but if you hole out with the wrong ball and don't correct it before starting the next hole, you are disqualified.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't know how you can make such a statement. If your ball goes anywhere near where you can see white posts signifying OOB, surely your first thought must be "am I in bounds or out". You don't think "that's a nice lie, I'll give that a whack", you check..

In the OP scenario, my first thought would be …phew…that was close to going out of bounds. And if I am honest I suspect that I would probably not think of drawing a line between the posts. Just saying. I might well be wrong but that’s what my first thought would be.

I might twig about the posts and straight line between them, but tbh I’m not sure I would.

 

[RichA]

I don't know how you can make such a statement. If your ball goes anywhere near where you can see white posts signifying OOB, surely your first thought must be "am I in bounds or out". You don't think "that's a nice lie, I'll give that a whack", you check..

There are clearly a few of us who don't know every rule of golf but work on the basis that, as in most other aspects of life, sport and law, if it seems right I'll carry on / if it seems wrong I'll check.
Before this discussion, like @Orikoru and others, I would have seen the white stake and thought that it was indicating that the border between cut and uncut grass was the boundary.
I've only been playing serious golf for 2 years and regularly find that I know more about the rules than many lifetime golfers at our club.
Now we know this rule and we can crack on. Is that not the entire and only purpose for the existence of this section of the forum?

 

[Orikoru]

Again, this is a Rules of golf forum, where we discuss the Rules of golf. In this situation, the ball is out of bounds according to the Rules of golf, unless there is something on the scorecard/clubhouse Local Rules indicating otherwise (which nobody has investigated/confirmed). It really is that simple!
One would expect that those playing the game of golf would at least have a rudimentary understanding of some of the basic Rules of the game (maybe come here to learn some of them?).

In your world "discussing" means question is asked and answered, end of - everything is black and white to you. In my world though discussing means actually discussing it. The rules may be black and white but real life situations seldom are.

Come off it. In no way would I expect everyone to know the rule book like the back of their hand, but knowing when your ball is out of bounds is absolutely basic. If no-one in your group knows that a ball which is lying in an area beyond white posts has the "potential" to be out of bounds, what can be said? It's almost like a group of footballers not knowing that a ball lying over the line in the goalmouth has the potential to be a goal.

If your ball goes out of bounds and you play it from there, you have played a wrong ball. You are then required to correct that - in this case by going back and playing stroke and distance. That costs you two strokes but if you hole out with the wrong ball and don't correct it before starting the next hole, you are disqualified.

Yeah, if it was painfully obvious that you were beyond the stakes, but in this situation it's not particularly obvious so could easily be missed by casual golfers. And therefore not corrected later either because all assumed they acted correctly. I can't believe you won't accept that this happens from time to time?? As I said earlier in the thread, in all our monthly comps there must be at least 4 or 5 rule breaks that go unnoticed and never punished every week.

 

[rulie]

In your world "discussing" means question is asked and answered, end of - everything is black and white to you. In my world though discussing means actually discussing it. The rules may be black and white but real life situations seldom are.

Instead of generalizing, let's stick to this specific situation, which was very black and white. According to the Rules, the ball was out of bounds. No amount of "discussion", without further information on the club's Local Rules, was going to change that outcome. Hopefully, a few casual golfers learned about the Rules regarding out of bounds defined by stakes and now know how to proceed correctly on the golf course.
It should not have taken 230+ posts to sort.

 

[Foxholer]

Instead of generalizing, let's stick to this specific situation, which was very black and white. According to the Rules, the ball was out of bounds. No amount of "discussion", without further information on the club's Local Rules, was going to change that outcome. Hopefully, a few casual golfers learned about the Rules regarding out of bounds defined by stakes and now know how to proceed correctly on the golf course.
It should not have taken 230+ posts to sort.

It didn't! It was resolved by Post 2!

 

[Orikoru]

Instead of generalizing, let's stick to this specific situation, which was very black and white. According to the Rules, the ball was out of bounds. No amount of "discussion", without further information on the club's Local Rules, was going to change that outcome. Hopefully, a few casual golfers learned about the Rules regarding out of bounds defined by stakes and now know how to proceed correctly on the golf course.
It should not have taken 230+ posts to sort.

Sorted out yeah, but discussions evolve. That's the beauty of a forum.

 

[RichA]

Sorted out yeah, but discussions evolve. That's the beauty of a forum.

Not just the beauty of them, it's the reason this exists.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Instead of generalizing, let's stick to this specific situation, which was very black and white. According to the Rules, the ball was out of bounds. No amount of "discussion", without further information on the club's Local Rules, was going to change that outcome. Hopefully, a few casual golfers learned about the Rules regarding out of bounds defined by stakes and now know how to proceed correctly on the golf course.
It should not have taken 230+ posts to sort.

Sorry but I am with Orikoru on this and beg to differ and think that it absolutely wasn’t very black and white. The situation that the less knowledgable or switched-on golfer would be faced with is at best ambiguous and confusing, at the worst quite easy to get completely wrong.

But I wonder what the rule is if the discovered intention of the club is that the OOB is beyond the cut grass and not defined by a straight line between the two posts.

 

[DickInShorts]

I had the reverse situation a couple of years ago - my ball was in the edges of thick rough on the right hand side of the fairway/rough with white posts marking OOB.
the hole curved from left to right so I was able to look from the white post short of my ball to the next one and see that it was just in bounds so I payed it.

I wonder how many of the contributors to this thread would have decided that actually it should have been deemed out of bounds because it wasn’t on the cut grass as the greenkeepers/committee had meant as the boundary!

 

[Colin L]

But I wonder what the rule is if the discovered intention of the club is that the OOB is beyond the cut grass and not defined by a straight line between the two posts.

If that intention was expressed clearly in the Local Rules as a definition of the boundary, then the ball in the original situation would be on the course. The intention has to be explicitly stated. In the absence of such a definition, the white stakes define the boundary and the ball would be out of bounds as has been consistently said throughout this remarkable thread.