IMMIGRATION

[Mrs Wiggles]

We might have a shortage of doctors, nurses, dentists etc but I'm pretty sure that the countries all the foreign ones come from haven't got an over supply of them. So it's OK for us ship them in when their home countries can't afford to lose them?

You are completely right. Successive governments have allowed things to become the way they are, and many people just accept that we must import people from other countries to fill our job market, whilst there are unemployed people collecting benefits. Remember the term "experience not necessary, as training will be given". That phrase used to be almost standard on the bottom of a job add, now employers expect people to hit the ground running all the time. We need a national training plan, and an education system that teaches young people to do the jobs we need doing.

 

[robinthehood]

Then you will probably be aware there are and have been for a very long time special arrangements for Irish Nationals to live in the UK.

Still immigrants though, yes?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

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Does this include the Irish?

...and what happens to Scots in England if Nicola gets her way sometime in the future...

Oh - I remember - on another thread Mrs Wiggles stated that he would be happy (wanted?) Scotland gone from the UK.

 

[Mrs Wiggles]

...and what happens to Scots in England if Nicola gets her way sometime in the future...

In my opinion, if this happens Scotland should be like any other country, unless the two governments decided to have a special arrangement. Of course, if Scotland decided to re-join the EU, it wouldn't be so easy.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

My thread clearly states that we are not ready for zero NET immigration. It must be remembered that part of the reason we need NHS workers from abroad is because our population is so large, and part of the reason for that is mass immigration. Hypothetically, if we didn't treat any first or second generation immigrants, the pressures on the NHS would be vastly reduced. I emphasise, hypothetically. I would also point out that our lack of training is partly to blame. We have an education system that is not joined up to the job market, unlike some other countries. We allow our university students to take pointless exams in order they end up working in McDonalds. Your right, many of the porters and and cleaning staff are from overseas, but at the same time the housing estate up the road from the hospital has hundreds of indigenous people sat on their behinds collecting benefits. As long as the government allow this life style to be an option the need for immigration continues.

I also agree with SocketRocket, when he says that taking people from other countries is immoral, because their skills aren't benefiting the country that trained them

We run plenty of adverts for porters etc which would be ideal these "indigenous" (whatever one of those is after centuries of immigration and breeding) but the bottom line is the vast majority simply can't be bothered and would rather sit at home and claim benefits. Far easier life. Same with a host of jobs across all sectors. Unless governments are going to step in and get tough on benefit scroungers capable of working and choosing not to then the situation never changes.

Similarly, we have an education system that is more than capable of sustaining those that want to go on and train as nurses or as a doctor but there simply isn't the take up in sufficient numbers to meet demand. Perhaps the thought of actually having to work hard to qualify and then train further once in post is far too daunting for many. I don't know. I simply know that we as a trust along with numerous others simply cannot find the numbers to fill our gaps. If some bright forum spark can magic up a one hit solution then the vote for next PM is a given

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

I never understand the argument that we need immigrants to fill the low skilled jobs when we have hundreds of thousands of British nationals sat on their backsides at home claiming benefits because they are too lazy to work. 'But the jobs are in different parts of the country!!' So what, I moved from Scotland to the south of England for work so what is stopping others from moving too?

 

[Deleted member 1147]

I never understand the argument that we need immigrants to fill the low skilled jobs when we have hundreds of thousands of British nationals sat on their backsides at home claiming benefits because they are too lazy to work. 'But the jobs are in different parts of the country!!' So what, I moved from Scotland to the south of England for work so what is stopping others from moving too?

Without saying you are right or wrong, it needs to be taken into account that you are not one of those lazy, sat on their backside all day, benefit claimants. So your experience doesn't really fit into what they would do (even if that's what they should do)!

Also, moving is expensive, and not really cost effective if you are going from a position of nothing to a position of low pay. It would have to be funded, and then lots of people would moan about these scroungers getting handouts to move house!

 

[SocketRocket]

I don't disagree with this point

Obviously a typo there. Please add a 'not' before sustainable 👍

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In my opinion, if this happens Scotland should be like any other country, unless the two governments decided to have a special arrangement. Of course, if Scotland decided to re-join the EU, it wouldn't be so easy.

OK - let's say our plans to move to Scotland in next couple of years come about (yes I know - thank goodness members at my club would say) - and then in 5yrs time Scotland became independent and joined the EU with rUK out of it. And let's say in my dotage my children wanted me to move to England to live with one of them. Would your rules permit me to do that?

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Without saying you are right or wrong, it needs to be taken into account that you are not one of those lazy, sat on their backside all day, benefit claimants. So your experience doesn't really fit into what they would do (even if that's what they should do)!

Also, moving is expensive, and not really cost effective if you are going from a position of nothing to a position of low pay. It would have to be funded, and then lots of people would moan about these scroungers getting handouts to move house!

I've been there James and got the T shirt. I'm not saying it's easy, took me years to get on my feet moving to the south with a young family and buying my first property. It can be done but we make it too easy to sit around and claim benefits.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Obviously a typo there. Please add a 'not' before sustainable 👍

Funnily enough - I actually read it as not sustainable & agreed with that

 

[SocketRocket]

Without saying you are right or wrong, it needs to be taken into account that you are not one of those lazy, sat on their backside all day, benefit claimants. So your experience doesn't really fit into what they would do (even if that's what they should do)!

Also, moving is expensive, and not really cost effective if you are going from a position of nothing to a position of low pay. It would have to be funded, and then lots of people would moan about these scroungers getting handouts to move house!

people from other countries manage it.

 

[drdel]

Its complex but I tend to agree with the view that our immigration has caused our population to grow too rapidly and faster than the overall capacity of the UK's infrastructure. If we invested more in training and the pay for NHS and similar workers we wouldn't need to pinch the qualified staff from other (particularly poorer) countries. I'd add that this is not in anyway driven or focussed by race, religion or skin colour.

We need an open, sensible and logical 'managed' system.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

people from other countries manage it.

But they often do it from a position of necessity, whereas for the slackers over here it isn't a necessity. It's easier to stay in benefits heaven!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Unless governments are going to step in and get tough on benefit scroungers capable of working and choosing not to then the situation never changes

And the government supports properly those from backgrounds of little or no working experience over one or more generations - who actually don't know how to go about getting a job and who are frankly frightened about what it means and are fearful of failure and rejection. Because many young people in the poorest sector of society have backgrounds of fear and rejection in dysfunctional and complex families. They know little else.

I know this 1st hand because the person I have just described is my son's girlfriend. She is hopeless in the sense of having little hope. She is 100% dependent upon our son, as he tries to support her in every facet of life as well as into the workplace. It is very, very easy for us to castigate and chastise her for not working - and seemingly incapable of work. And in the past we have done that. But over time we have come to realise that she is lost, vulnerable and very fearful. Were my son to dump her she would quite literally (no exaggeration) have nothing and nowhere to go.

And since you mentioned it - she does not claim any benefits from the state (as much as we tell her that she should...)

 

[IanM]

Huge stupidity on all sides in my view!

1) Zero immigration isnt desireable, practical or possible.
2) Why is "skills based managed immigration" portrayed by some as racist?
3) Why are the advocates of "open borders" also the same folk protesting about shortages of public services? If you don't know who is coming to dinner, how many places do you set?

The NHS is a great example it is hugely dependent on overseas workers. BUT, next door neighbour's daughter had to defer her medical study for a year "a the quota for UK students was full?" So, we'd rather not train our kids eh? Seems daft to me. (been going on for a while too) Also, if we are attracting large numbers of medical workers from overseas, what is that doing to servcies in that country? (Nigerian guy in my office says its causing severe problems there)

Why is it ok to say the "UK unemployed are lazy gits" if it is someone supporting min wage EU Workers/EU Membersip? (eg the Turkey Farmer on BBC News Channel yesterday).............but, for example, if a Tory MP said it, they would be hung out to dry!

We've had migration in these islands for thousands of years. Fit in, contribute and be nice.... job's a goodun... and vast majority do. What concerns me is a relatively recent trend in not being allowed to call out those who dont, or challenge stuff that doesnt benefit everyone. And you get called racist if you do. Why is rational debate now banned? (dont confuse that with the real racists)

 

[Mrs Wiggles]

We run plenty of adverts for porters etc which would be ideal these "indigenous" (whatever one of those is after centuries of immigration and breeding) but the bottom line is the vast majority simply can't be bothered and would rather sit at home and claim benefits. Far easier life. Same with a host of jobs across all sectors. Unless governments are going to step in and get tough on benefit scroungers capable of working and choosing not to then the situation never changes.

Similarly, we have an education system that is more than capable of sustaining those that want to go on and train as nurses or as a doctor but there simply isn't the take up in sufficient numbers to meet demand. Perhaps the thought of actually having to work hard to qualify and then train further once in post is far too daunting for many. I don't know. I simply know that we as a trust along with numerous others simply cannot find the numbers to fill our gaps. If some bright forum spark can magic up a one hit solution then the vote for next PM is a given

Yes, I am aware of the problems, and my belief for a zero NET immigration policy isn't one for tomorrow. Like I said, none of governments have had a long term joined up plan, and that's why we find ourselves where we are now. Regardless of government, plans have always been short term, and as a result we are in a horrible mess, and the NHS is a great example of this. When the population is too large the infrastructure can't cope. We can not hope to improve the infrastructure at the rate the population grows, because the tax revenue from the aforementioned immigration isn't nearly enough. I once read (migration watch article) if we stopped all immigration tomorrow, it would take over twenty years of immigrant taxes to build the infrastructure needed to support them. Blairs government introduced an underclass who thought it was OK to live a life of benefits, and that culture still exists amongst many people. As soon as the government make any attempt to remedy this we have a small minority lefties marching up and down Hyde Park complaining. It's totally immoral that we are robbing other countries of their health workers in order we can fulfil our own needs. We need to encourage and cajole our youth into entering healthcare, but I'm not sure how we can do that !

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I never understand the argument that we need immigrants to fill the low skilled jobs when we have hundreds of thousands of British nationals sat on their backsides at home claiming benefits because they are too lazy to work. 'But the jobs are in different parts of the country!!' So what, I moved from Scotland to the south of England for work so what is stopping others from moving too?

Remember that we keep being told by the government that unemployment is at the lowest level since Adam was a boy blah blah. In fact statistically I believe the UK is in full employment. For one reason or another there will always be many 10s of thousands not working or temporarily out of work.

 

[Mrs Wiggles]

Huge stupidity on all sides in my view!

1) Zero immigration isnt desireable, practical or possible.
2) Why is "skills based managed immigration" portrayed by some as racist?
3) Why are the advocates of "open borders" also the same folk protesting about shortages of public services? If you don't know who is coming to dinner, how many places to set?

The NHS is a great example it is hugely dependent on overseas workers. BUT, next door neighbour's daughter had to defer her medical study for a year "a the quota for UK students was full?" So, we'd rather not train our kids eh? Seems daft to me. (been going on for a while too) Also, if we are attracting large numbers of medical workers from overseas, what is that doing to servcies in that country? (Nigerian guy in my office says its causing severe problems there)

Why is it ok to say the "UK unemployed are lazy gits" if it is someone supporting min wage EU Workers/EU Membersip? (eg the Turkey Farmer on BBC News Channel yesterday).............but, for example, if a Tory MP said it, they would be hung out to dry!

We've had migration in these islands for thousands of years. Fit in, contribute and be nice.... job's a goodun... and vast majority do. What concerns me is a relatively recent trend in not being allowed to call out those who dont, or challenge stuff that doesnt benefit everyone. And you get called racist if you do. Why is rational debate now banned? (dont confuse that with the real racists)

I agree with much of that, but I should point out I used the word "NET" in front of the word immigration. We don't have endless space, resources, or infrastructure. We have an ageing population, and by allowing the population to grow only means our future ageing population will become worse. Despite what some people may think, immigration is only a short term answer to the problem, and will create more problems that it solves.

My son is an advocate of open borders, and believes the world is nothing more than a global village. He believes that anyone who doesn't share his opinion is a Nazi racist. This what we are up against I am afraid.

 

[Mrs Wiggles]

Remember that we keep being told by the government that unemployment is at the lowest level since blah blah. In fact statistically I believe the UK is in full employment. For one reason or another there will always be many 10s of thousands not working or temporarily out of work.

Whilst unemployment is low, I really don't believe the figures. For example, I know several people who can work but choose not to. I also know several people who claim to be disabled and can't work, when in actual fact they are fitter than me.