Identifying A Ball When I’d rather not

[Swango1980]

Like holy spirit it's there, you just can't see it. I did say that nobody ever did this. What I found hard to explain is that the provisional ball rule gives you a choice you shouldn't have. Perhaps spirit of the game is the wrong term, I just can't think of an alternative. I think the original provisional ball rule assumed you'd look for the ball for the full 3/5 minutes.

It may appear to give you a choice, but that choice also includes not finding your ball that may actually have ended up in a playable position had you looked. Even if you didn't declare a provisional at all, a player may simply immediately elect to hit 3 off the tee when they know their original is definitely in a horrific position that has next to no chance of being found, or playable if it is found. But, by extension of what you are getting at, a player could say that, despite what the rules say, they have an obligation to find their first because they hit it there. And, if they find it, they have an obligation to play it as it lies, because they hit it there. I'm sure the rules were very very different a century ago than they are today (not that I was around to know how different).

What I'm getting at, a player plays within the "spirit of the game", or whatever other term one want to use, by playing to the Rules of Golf, however they are written at that particular time. Those rules may well benefit a player at times, but there is nothing wrong with that.

I suppose I was a little direct with my initial response because the very same thing happened to a friend of mine last season when he joined a new club. He hit his original in a bad area and played a provisional. When he could see the original was likely to be in a horrid spot, he politely asked his playing partners he was not going to look. He was told in no uncertain terms he MUST look for his original. Being new to the club, and not 100% certain on the rules (like many club golfers), he obeyed this chap. They did find it, and he walked off with a double digit score. Incorrect information helped to destroy his round. I suspect this particular point is perhaps a bit of an urban myth to many. Or, if this used to be the rule as you say, then perhaps this legacy remains with some people.

 

[rulie]

Given that the history of a provisional ball dates back to 1829, I don't see how it can be considered "against the spirit of the game". A provisional is meant to "save delay", ie, to save time.

Here's a history of provisional ball:
Provisional Ball
An embryonic provisional ball procedure first appeared in St Andrews 1829. For a lost ball, the player must play stroke and distance, but if the original ball is found "before the party playing a new one has come to the ground where it was lost, the first continues the one to be played".

However, the idea was quashed in 1858. The original only continues in play if found before the second ball is played.

1891 The option available only in medal play (lost ball=lost hole in match play).

1902 Following the introduction of out of bounds in 1899, a provisional ball was allowed for a ball possibly played out of bounds.

1908 The term 'Provisional' first appears, as a sub-heading. 1912 new wording, "in order to save delay" a player may play a provisional ball "at once".

1920 Provisional ball now allowed for a ball out of bounds, lost outside water, or unplayable. An additional requirement is that a player must play the ball before going forward to search.

1933 Clarified that a player may play up to the place where original is likely to be, but it wasn't until 1972 that a provisional ball played beyond this point automatically becomes the ball in play.

1947 USGA. Added, although a provisional may not be played for a ball in a water hazard, if the original is found in a water hazard, and the provisional has been played in accordance with the relief procedure for water hazards, then it becomes the ball in play, otherwise it must be abandoned.
Furthermore, if the player would have no choice but to play again from the tee, a local rule may allow a provisional to be played for a ball that may be lost in a water hazard.

1950 R&A Now no provisional available for an unplayable ball; for the other options, one provisional only may be played.

1952 Rule completely revised. Provisional can be played for ball lost, out of bounds, unplayable, or in a water hazard. If the original is playable, the player has the choice of which ball to play. However, if the original ball is in a water hazard, either the original can be played as it lies, or the provisional, but no other option under the water hazard rule may be used; similarly for unplayable, no alternative option under the unplayable ball rule may be used.

1956 Provisional must be announced before being played.

1960 USGA abolished the play of a provisional for a ball in a water hazard and for an unplayable ball.

1964 R&A abolished provisional for a ball in a water hazard, and in 1968 for an unplayable ball. Also removed the choice of ball to play - now player must abandon prov if orig is found in bounds

 

[Swango1980]

Given that the history of a provisional ball dates back to 1829, I don't see how it can be considered "against the spirit of the game". A provisional is meant to "save delay", ie, to save time.

Here's a history of provisional ball:
Provisional Ball
An embryonic provisional ball procedure first appeared in St Andrews 1829. For a lost ball, the player must play stroke and distance, but if the original ball is found "before the party playing a new one has come to the ground where it was lost, the first continues the one to be played".

However, the idea was quashed in 1858. The original only continues in play if found before the second ball is played.

1891 The option available only in medal play (lost ball=lost hole in match play).

1902 Following the introduction of out of bounds in 1899, a provisional ball was allowed for a ball possibly played out of bounds.

1908 The term 'Provisional' first appears, as a sub-heading. 1912 new wording, "in order to save delay" a player may play a provisional ball "at once".

1920 Provisional ball now allowed for a ball out of bounds, lost outside water, or unplayable. An additional requirement is that a player must play the ball before going forward to search.

1933 Clarified that a player may play up to the place where original is likely to be, but it wasn't until 1972 that a provisional ball played beyond this point automatically becomes the ball in play.

1947 USGA. Added, although a provisional may not be played for a ball in a water hazard, if the original is found in a water hazard, and the provisional has been played in accordance with the relief procedure for water hazards, then it becomes the ball in play, otherwise it must be abandoned.
Furthermore, if the player would have no choice but to play again from the tee, a local rule may allow a provisional to be played for a ball that may be lost in a water hazard.

1950 R&A Now no provisional available for an unplayable ball; for the other options, one provisional only may be played.

1952 Rule completely revised. Provisional can be played for ball lost, out of bounds, unplayable, or in a water hazard. If the original is playable, the player has the choice of which ball to play. However, if the original ball is in a water hazard, either the original can be played as it lies, or the provisional, but no other option under the water hazard rule may be used; similarly for unplayable, no alternative option under the unplayable ball rule may be used.

1956 Provisional must be announced before being played.

1960 USGA abolished the play of a provisional for a ball in a water hazard and for an unplayable ball.

1964 R&A abolished provisional for a ball in a water hazard, and in 1968 for an unplayable ball. Also removed the choice of ball to play - now player must abandon prov if orig is found in bounds

Very informative. I think Maninblack would be horrified by 1950's version of the rule.

Wasn't there a small update in 2019? As far as I remember, pre 2019 you couldn't play a provisional after you began your journey to look for your first (a member at my club took it too literally, and said you could not play a provisional once stepping off the tee box, which meant it was tricky to go to your bag to actually get the provisional ball to begin with). Whereas now that is no longer a condition.

 

[rulefan]

I think the original provisional ball rule assumed you'd look for the ball for the full 3/5 minutes.

I think you have it the wrong way round. The time set is to limit the time of the search to something reasonable. If there was no limit we could be there all day searching. Pace of Play was a reason why it was reduced from 5 to 3 minutes.

 

[rulefan]

Very informative. I think Maninblack would be horrified by 1950's version of the rule.

Wasn't there a small update in 2019? As far as I remember, pre 2019 you couldn't play a provisional after you began your journey to look for your first (a member at my club took it too literally, and said you could not play a provisional once stepping off the tee box, which meant it was tricky to go to your bag to actually get the provisional ball to begin with). Whereas now that is no longer a condition.

Correct.

 

[rulefan]

When there are spectators in bigger competitions, they will often rush to area where the player has hit a wayward drive. Someone will then proudly greet the player's arrival with a triumphant 'Here's your ball. It's in real trouble, you probably haven't got a shot!'
As a referee I (and most of my colleagues) will normally try to get there first and ask the spectators not to search until the player arrives and indicates he is happy to have assistance. In the rough may be ok but not in the jungle.

 

[Swango1980]

When there are spectators in bigger competitions, they will often rush to area where the player has hit a wayward drive. Someone will then proudly greet the player's arrival with a triumphant 'Here's your ball. It's in real trouble, you probably haven't got a shot!'
As a referee I (and most of my colleagues) will normally try to get there first and ask the spectators not to search until the player arrives and indicates he is happy to have assistance. In the rough may be ok but not in the jungle.

Good luck with that if you are ever a referee on the PGA Tour

 

[rulie]

Here's a related interesting story/ruling from a playoff on the PGATour.

USGA Responds to Ruling in Mickelson-Lickliter Playoff
By Golf Channel Newsroom
February 13, 2001 at 12:00 PM
The USGA released its opinion on the rulings made during Sunday's Buick Invitational playoff between Phil Mickelson and Frank Lickliter:

The keys to understanding the ruling are the Definition of 'Lost Ball,' Rule 28, Rule 27-2c, and Decision 27/16.

Both players played their first stroke from the teeing ground into a canyon left of the fairway, an area through the green. Each played a provisional ball from the teeing ground in case the original ball was lost through the green. Lickliter's ball was found and he elected to declare his ball unplayable and return to play another ball from the teeing ground under Rule 28a.

Mickelson asked for search of his ball not to begin, however, when the spotter found a ball, Mickelson was obligated to identify that ball. Mickelson identified his ball and, therefore, was required to abandon the provisional ball and continue play with his original ball (Rule 27-2c). Mickelson also declared his ball unplayable and proceeded in accordance with Rule 28a.

Decision 27/16 states that a player cannot render a ball lost by declaration. The only way a ball can be lost is if it is not found within 5 minutes of the player's side beginning search for it; or the player has put another ball into play even if he has not searched for the original ball; or the player has played a stroke with the provisional ball from a point where the original ball may be lost or a point closer to the hole than that point.

The second issue at hand is the order of play when the player's returned to the teeing ground to play their third strokes respectively. The order of play is determined by the relative positions of the balls before relief is taken (Decision 10/1 is analogous). Therefore, as Lickliter was farther from the hole before the two balls were declared unplayable, he correctly played first from the teeing ground.

 

[Maninblack4612]

I think you have it the wrong way round. The time set is to limit the time of the search to something reasonable. If there was no limit we could be there all day searching. Pace of Play was a reason why it was reduced from 5 to 3 minutes.

What I meant was that the rule obviate the need to walk back to the tee after a 3 minute search fails to find the ball.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This!

And this!

As for the 'deluded' PP/FC...I would be seiously unhappy if he continued to search after having been told to 'not continue'!

If a pp/fc hits his ball into difficult territory I will only help looking for it if he wants me to help…and so I don’t look until after I have asked and he has said he does. TBH I can’t say for certain what I do in a match. I suspect that I will go look for his ball until he plays any provisional or puts another ball into play…but I don’t think I have a hard and fast policy…and that it depends on the match; the opponent; and the state of play.

 

[salfordlad]

If I see a ball when searching I have to check if it’s mine, even if it’s in a place I’d rather take my provisional/walk back. Correct?

So what if my PP sees one. Or a FC. Or a passer-by walking his dog.

Is it the case that if ‘anyone’ finds a ball during a search, I’m obliged to identify it?

I’ve often asked people not to search anywhere I’d likely prefer not to find it but just wondered if this request was unnecessary?

The most direct reference for this question is 18.3c(2)/2 and it doesn't matter who finds the ball, player is obligated to check it.
18.3c(2)/2 – Player May Ask Others Not to Search for His or Her Original Ball
If a player does not plan to search for his or her original ball because he or she would prefer to continue play with a provisional ball, the player may ask others not to search, but there is no obligation for them to comply.
If a ball is found, the player must make all reasonable efforts to identify the ball, provided he or she has not already played the provisional ball from nearer the hole than where the original ball was estimated to be, in which case it became the player’s ball in play. If the provisional ball has not yet become the ball in play when another ball is found, refusal to make a reasonable effort to identify the found ball may be considered serious misconduct contrary to the spirit of the game (Rule 1.2a).
After the other ball is found, if the provisional ball is played from nearer the hole than where the other ball was found, and it turns out that the other ball was the player’s original ball, the stroke at the provisional ball was actually a stroke at a wrong ball (Rule 6.3c). The player will get the general penalty and, in stroke play, must correct the error by continuing play with the original ball.

 

[williamalex1]

The most direct reference for this question is 18.3c(2)/2 and it doesn't matter who finds the ball, player is obligated to check it.
18.3c(2)/2 – Player May Ask Others Not to Search for His or Her Original Ball
If a player does not plan to search for his or her original ball because he or she would prefer to continue play with a provisional ball, the player may ask others not to search, but there is no obligation for them to comply.
If a ball is found, the player must make all reasonable efforts to identify the ball, provided he or she has not already played the provisional ball from nearer the hole than where the original ball was estimated to be, in which case it became the player’s ball in play. If the provisional ball has not yet become the ball in play when another ball is found, refusal to make a reasonable effort to identify the found ball may be considered serious misconduct contrary to the spirit of the game (Rule 1.2a).
After the other ball is found, if the provisional ball is played from nearer the hole than where the other ball was found, and it turns out that the other ball was the player’s original ball, the stroke at the provisional ball was actually a stroke at a wrong ball (Rule 6.3c). The player will get the general penalty and, in stroke play, must correct the error by continuing play with the original ball.

Are you sure about the stroke at wrong ball ??

 

[rulie]

Are you sure about the stroke at wrong ball ??

He has provided a direct quote from the Rules of golf. I'm quite certain that it is correct!

 

[clubchamp98]

You cannot change your mind about the status of the provisional ball half way down the fairway, it only becomes the ball in play when your original ball is lost (either 3 minutes search time elapsed or you make a stroke at the provisional ball).

He’s not changing his mind!
I think he means off the tee he is making sure they know it’s not Provisional.

But I think that’s not necessary.
It’s only a provisional if you declare it as one.
If you just say nothing it’s then the ball in play.

 

[rulie]

You do not have to wait for the 3minutes to expire before going to play your provisional. If you think your ball is lost in an area where you would rather not find it you can tell your fellow players not to search for it and just walk up to your provisional and play it. However, if they (or you) find a ball before you get to make a stroke at your provisional, you are obliged to go and identify it.

Just a point of clarification - making a stroke at the provisional ball does not take the original ball out of play UNLESS that stroke at the provisional is made from a spot nearer the hole than where the original ball is estimated to be.
Example - original ball is hit approximately 200 yards from the tee into long grass/gorse. Player advises he is playing a provisional and hits the provisional into the fairway, 150 yards from the tee. The player can make a stroke at the provisional ball from its spot on the fairway and that will not affect the status of the original ball, and the provisional is still a provisional.

 

[Backache]

The most direct reference for this question is 18.3c(2)/2 and it doesn't matter who finds the ball, player is obligated to check it.
18.3c(2)/2 – Player May Ask Others Not to Search for His or Her Original Ball
If a player does not plan to search for his or her original ball because he or she would prefer to continue play with a provisional ball, the player may ask others not to search, but there is no obligation for them to comply.
If a ball is found, the player must make all reasonable efforts to identify the ball, provided he or she has not already played the provisional ball from nearer the hole than where the original ball was estimated to be, in which case it became the player’s ball in play. If the provisional ball has not yet become the ball in play when another ball is found, refusal to make a reasonable effort to identify the found ball may be considered serious misconduct contrary to the spirit of the game (Rule 1.2a).
After the other ball is found, if the provisional ball is played from nearer the hole than where the other ball was found, and it turns out that the other ball was the player’s original ball, the stroke at the provisional ball was actually a stroke at a wrong ball (Rule 6.3c). The player will get the general penalty and, in stroke play, must correct the error by continuing play with the original ball.

I wonder what is deemed 'serious effort' there are more than a few large and unpleasantly prickly gorse bushes on our course where you occasionally see several balls in the middle of but attempts to retrieve them could be a distinctly painful process.

 

[Swango1980]

I wonder what is deemed 'serious effort' there are more than a few large and unpleasantly prickly gorse bushes on our course where you occasionally see several balls in the middle of but attempts to retrieve them could be a distinctly painful process.

I think that would be unreasonable effort, so you'd be OK. I've seen PGA players see a ball in a tree before, and they desperately want to.identify it. But, sometimes it is not possible, and I don't thing a referee would expect them to climb the tree to identify it (albeit they may try as it could well be to their advantage)

 

[Deleted member 3432]

I wonder what is deemed 'serious effort' there are more than a few large and unpleasantly prickly gorse bushes on our course where you occasionally see several balls in the middle of but attempts to retrieve them could be a distinctly painful process.

I think you have answered your own question, no one seriously expects you to crawl into the middle of a large clump of gorse to identify your ball.

 

[Swango1980]

I wonder what is deemed 'serious effort' there are more than a few large and unpleasantly prickly gorse bushes on our course where you occasionally see several balls in the middle of but attempts to retrieve them could be a distinctly painful process.

Your scenario got me thinking though.

Imagine you see a ball under a bush. No way for you to identify it from where it lies. But, you can stretch your club right underneath and scoop the ball out. When you do, and it rolls out, it is your ball. What happens next?

The instinct is you have identified your ball, and you will play under the unplayable ball rule. I suspect most golfers would do this?

However, the rules state that, if you need to move your ball to identify it, it must be marked first. This was not possible in this case, however the rules simply say the player gets a one shot penalty for failing to mark the ball.

So, what is technically the correct process once a player drags their ball out of a bush to identify it?

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Your scenario got me thinking though.

Imagine you see a ball under a bush. No way for you to identify it from where it lies. But, you can stretch your club right underneath and scoop the ball out. When you do, and it rolls out, it is your ball. What happens next?

The instinct is you have identified your ball, and you will play under the unplayable ball rule. I suspect most golfers would do this?

However, the rules state that, if you need to move your ball to identify it, it must be marked first. This was not possible in this case, however the rules simply say the player gets a one shot penalty for failing to mark the ball.

So, what is technically the correct process once a player drags their ball out of a bush to identify it?

Working on the basis it is your ball before you rake it out you stick your driver in the Bush and get your 2 club lengths and mark that point.

If that option not available you work on the straight line position and mark that before moving your ball to identify it.

Huge gorse bushes are best delt with by the simple act of just taking the stroke and distance option as soon as you hit it in there...