Hypothetical Rules Question

[Region3]

The thread about taking a penalty drop got me thinking, but I didn't want to take it off topic by posting this there.

I have (hypothetically) hit my tee shot into a clump of thick bushes, and have no shot available so decide to take an unplayable penalty. I don't want to go back to the tee because it's a horrible shot, and going back on a line isn't possible so I'm left with 2 club lengths.

The trouble is that 2 club lengths doesn't quite get me out of the bushes.

Here's the question. Can I mark my 2 club length limit, and drop the ball from shoulder height over that point into the bushes and hope that it takes a nice bounce off the bush on the way down, and leaves me with a shot (providing the ball finishes no more than another 2 club lengths away from the initial 2 club lengths)?

 

[bladeplayer]

Very Interesting alright ................. I would have thought if you are taking relief it would have to be full relief , if full relief was not available then that option would be ruled out , that could just relate to hazzards tho , Not much help Gary, sorry

 

[Wheyayeman]

The thread about taking a penalty drop got me thinking, but I didn't want to take it off topic by posting this there.

I have (hypothetically) hit my tee shot into a clump of thick bushes, and have no shot available so decide to take an unplayable penalty. I don't want to go back to the tee because it's a horrible shot, and going back on a line isn't possible so I'm left with 2 club lengths.

The trouble is that 2 club lengths doesn't quite get me out of the bushes.

Here's the question. Can I mark my 2 club length limit, and drop the ball from shoulder height over that point into the bushes and hope that it takes a nice bounce off the bush on the way down, and leaves me with a shot (providing the ball finishes no more than another 2 club lengths away from the initial 2 club lengths)?

That's pretty much it, you're taking an unplayable lie so you need to drop the ball within 2 club lengths and are allowed a further 2 club lengths of roll. If the initial 2 club lengths are in a bush then tough, and if the ball is still unplayable you can take another unplayable lie from the new point, but bear in mind that your ovr options have changed as well, line of sight to the pin may be more favourable but you could only drop back into the initial bush if you chose to replay the shot and not the tee box this time. This procedure can be done as many times as you like at a penalty shot per time

 

[Region3]

Very Interesting alright ................. I would have thought if you are taking relief it would have to be full relief , if full relief was not available then that option would be ruled out , that could just relate to hazzards tho , Not much help Gary, sorry

But it's not relief though as it's a penalty drop.
If your 2 lengths got you to a clear lie with a tree in the way you could deliberately drop onto a bank so the ball would roll clear of the tree.

My only question mark really is if the ball is allowed to hit something before the ground on the drop. You can't drop straight onto the ground as there's only a few inches clearance underneath the bushes.

 

[Region3]

That's pretty much it, you're taking an unplayable lie so you need to drop the ball within 2 club lengths and are allowed a further 2 club lengths of roll. If the initial 2 club lengths are in a bush then tough, and if the ball is still unplayable you can take another unplayable lie from the new point, but bear in mind that your ovr options have changed as well, line of sight to the pin may be more favourable but you could only drop back into the initial bush if you chose to replay the shot and not the tee box this time. This procedure can be done as many times as you like at a penalty shot per time

This is sort of my point.

Am I allowed to drop into the bush and then judge again after the drop. After all, it might be one of those nicely manicured bushes that's almost guaranteed to bounce the ball away from it.

Even if the ball settles on top of the bush I might be tempted to have a swish at it, especially if it were stableford or matchplay.

 

[bobmac]

I take it this is a foursomes match Gary ?

 

[Region3]

I take it this is a foursomes match Gary ?

Obviously because I couldn't have hit THAT bad a drive...

No Bob, totally hypothetical. I just thought about it reading the other thread on penalty/free drops and wondered if you could do it.

Spawned from an imagination that's used to figuring out silly ways to pot pool balls off the lampshades!

 

[CMAC]

it sounds feasable to me, def not in the spirit of the rules but maybe Bob can answer

 

[pbrown7582]

Sounds right to mr I don't recall anywhere it stating ball has to hit the ground.

 

[bobmac]

I seem to remember the ball has to strike the ground within the one/two clublengths and may then roll. Dont quote me though

 

[chrisd]

it sounds feasable to me, def not in the spirit of the rules but maybe Bob can answer

Can you explain "spirit of the rules" for me please?

 

[duncan mackie]

This is sort of my point.

Am I allowed to drop into the bush and then judge again after the drop. After all, it might be one of those nicely manicured bushes that's almost guaranteed to bounce the ball away from it.

Even if the ball settles on top of the bush I might be tempted to have a swish at it, especially if it were stableford or matchplay.

your missing links are the phrase 'must first strike a part of the course...' and the definition of 'course', which effectively encompasses everything that's integral ie the bush would be OK as it's a part of the course.

don't underestimate what can go wrong with such situations once you give up you option to return to the tee - I'm trying to remember which pro ended up with a huge score through first trying to play out of the impossible (your bush) then ends up forced into drops and hacks and drops and drops......maybe Na, or maybe I have him on the brain right now.

 

[MashieNiblick]

As Duncan says the bush is part of the course.

Couple of relevant decisions

20-2b/1 Dropped Ball Never Strikes Ground

Q. A player drops a ball where the applicable Rule requires. It lodges in a bush without striking the ground. What is the ruling?

A. The ball is in play. It struck a part of the course where required by the applicable Rule and did not roll into a position requiring it to be re-dropped under Rule 20-2c.

20-2c/1.3 Dropped Ball Strikes Tree Branch Then Ground; Whether Re-Drop Required

Q. A player drops a ball within the area prescribed by the applicable Rule. It bounces off a tree branch and as a result strikes the ground outside that area. What is the ruling?

A. The ball struck a part of the course (the branch) where the applicable Rule requires (Rule 20-2b). Therefore, provided it does not roll into any of the positions listed in Rule 20-2c, it is in play and must not be re-dropped. In measuring the two club-lengths to determine if a re-drop is required under Rule 20-2c(vi), the point on the ground immediately below the spot where the ball first struck a part of the course (the branch) shall be used for measuring purposes.

 

[Foxholer]

Can you explain "spirit of the rules" for me please?

Better still, can Mods create some synonymns so the 'not in the spirit of the Rules' and 'against the spirit of the rules' get changed to 'quite legal' or similar? :angry:

I'm with ChrisD on this one. If it ain't against the Rules, then it's within the Rules, so perfectly fine. And requesting a Ruling, then appealing to Chief Referee if it's not the one wanted is fine too.

That said, there's a 'Spirit of the Game' concept that occasionally gets demonstrated by players - Darren Clarke's chip out from a perfect lie that was a decidedly dodgy one when play was stopped the night before is the most obvious one.

Bleedin' heck I'm consistent! http://www.golfmagic.com/forum/the-19th-hole/cheating-in-golf/46680.html 27/12/2011 at 12:57!

 

[Whereditgo]

don't underestimate what can go wrong with such situations once you give up you option to return to the tee - I'm trying to remember which pro ended up with a huge score through first trying to play out of the impossible (your bush) then ends up forced into drops and hacks and drops and drops......maybe Na, or maybe I have him on the brain right now.

Yeah you remember correctly, it was Na.......remember him muttering to his caddie as they walked down the fairway after finally getting it back into play some thing like:

Na - "I don't even know how many strokes I had"

Caddie - "Don't worry, they'll have it all on TV"

oh aye! and youtube :rofl:

 

[MadAdey]

Can you explain "spirit of the rules" for me please?

It is quite simple really. When you play golf you do not have a rules official with you, so it is up to you to administer the rules. So there is scope to do what ever you like and bend the rules in what ever way you see fit. That is the "spirit of the game". Some people will say if it is in the rules then it is allowed, if it is not then you can't do it. Well sometimes you will have a situation that is not black and white so you have to make an informed decision on what to do, by interpreting the rules to give a solution to your situation. That is when the spirit of the game comes into it. My attitude has always been the rules are there to be used not broken. If you do bend them a little bit for your own advantage then that is the rub of the green, you get enough bad luck in this game.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Can you explain "spirit of the rules" for me please?

Don't think there is any official definition, unlike "Spirit of the Game", but I think there is such a thing.

As MadAdey says, on the course it is sometimes difficult to be sure about what to to do. That's true even with a Rule book in your hand. The Rules can be confusing and many situations are only resolved by checking the decisions. Accordingly, on the course you sometimes have to make a judgement call. That's when for me the "Spirit of the Rules" would kick in.

So in these situations you need to think what is likely to be the right thing taking into account the general principles of the game - "Play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it and if you cannot do either do what is fair" - printed inside the cover of the Rule book (maybe that is the "Spirit of the Rules"). I'd also add that if in doubt take the least advantageous option. Yes there is the second ball option under Rule 3-3 but at our level that is rarely invoked (never seen it in 40 years playing).

Take the thread about raking the bunker before dropping the ball. The OP wasn't sure what the ruling was but instinct was that it was wrong. In fact examination of the Rules bore that out. You could argue that that instinct was a manifestation of "the Spirit of the Rules". It felt wrong and not in line with how the Rules generally suggest the game should be played.

 

[Region3]

I think the closest the rule book gets to mentioning spirit of the game is the word equity which basically means do what is fair.

 

[palindromicbob]

http://www.randa.org/en/Playing-Golf/Spirit-of-the-Game.aspx

 

[Region3]

I stand (sit, melting in my greenhouse of an office) corrected