How many did we win by?

[rulie]

I absolutely disagree.
I do not see any way that the oppo can be deemed to have deliberately conceded the putt when the putt for a 3 was totally irrelevant.
It seems 100% obvious to me that if it was discovered that the OP had 15 clubs, there is no way that the oppo would be deemed by any reasonable and equitable decision to have conceded the putt for a 3.
Decision 2-5/5.5 doesn't specifically address this.

Remember, we're discussing a situation where the 15 clubs were discovered after the handshake. Theorizing what happened or might have been before that discovery is endless. The Rules (Decision 2-3/2) say the handshake is deemed a concession.

 

[doublebogey7]

I absolutely disagree.
I do not see any way that the oppo can be deemed to have deliberately conceded the putt when the putt for a 3 was totally irrelevant.
It seems 100% obvious to me that if it was discovered that the OP had 15 clubs, there is no way that the oppo would be deemed by any reasonable and equitable decision to have conceded the putt for a 3.
Decision 2-5/5.5 doesn't specifically address this.

I don't understand your argument, decision 2-3/2 makes it plain that the shaking of the hand constitutes the concesion of the players next stroke. If the player does not wish to concede the put then they don't shake hands.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I absolutely disagree.
I do not see any way that the oppo can be deemed to have deliberately conceded the putt when the putt for a 3 was totally irrelevant.
It seems 100% obvious to me that if it was discovered that the OP had 15 clubs, there is no way that the oppo would be deemed by any reasonable and equitable decision to have conceded the putt for a 3.
Decision 2-5/5.5 doesn't specifically address this.

By your logic, when would they still be able to claim the penalty for too many clubs? There is no more golf to be played...

 

[backwoodsman]

Am I allowed to say that I had the right number of clubs - and no caddy ...

 

[rulie]

By your logic, when would they still be able to claim the penalty for too many clubs? There is no more golf to be played...

Suggest that you look at Decision 2-5/5.5

 

[Three]

I don't understand your argument, decision 2-3/2 makes it plain that the shaking of the hand constitutes the concesion of the players next stroke. If the player does not wish to concede the put then they don't shake hands.

May I suggest you read from the beginning?
The oppo only shook hands because he had lost the match due to the OP's partner also making a 4. The "concession" is only a technical concession in order to determine the score. If the player was 5 down with 7 to play, his 4 vs the OP's partner's 4 wouldn't have been the end of the match, hence he wouldn't have shaken hands and wouldn't have conceded the 3.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I go back to my original opinion of 7&6. The OP conceded the opponent's putt for a 4 which meant that the match was over and the handshakes merely cemented the fact that the match was over. The remaining putt by the OP had no relevance as the match was over.

If the OP was keen for it to be 8&6, why didn't he ask the opponent if he conceded his putt for a 3 and a win?

That's my thinking also. Team A have Player 1 down in 4 with Player 2 chance of 3. Team B have Player 1 played 3 and putt conceded for 4; Team B Player 2 can't improve on 4. (Handshake and ) Team A Player 2 picks his ball up so out of the hole. Hole halved in 4s - 7&6.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The player by the shaking of the conceedes the persons putt which was for a three and therefore wins that hole and therefore the match score is 8&6

 

[duncan mackie]

The "concession" was a concession, a la Decision 2-4/6 (and that Decision applies to more than singles matches). As per Decision 2/2, the match is not over until all players have completed play of the last hole. If it is discovered that one of the players on the team that was dormie had 15 clubs in his bag, and the opponents make a claim before all the players leave that putting green (Rule 2-5), their claim will be upheld and the state of the match will be adjusted by two holes, ie, by deducting two from the number that side is ahead, instead of 8 up they will go to 6 up and the match will continue.
I'm not sure that the "deemed" concession by shaking hands can be rescinded.

I honk we have all got to the same place on the original post...or maybe I just hope.

You raise an interesting point in this post regarding the situation bought in and I would suggest that there are overriding principles that could be bought into the equation - the most obvious being a concession when the facts aren't known; in this case the true state of the match!

Obviously this one would need a committee to be bought in to rule but, we're I to be involved I would take the match back to that hole and have the putt taken in addition to the adjustment to the match.

Whilst 1-4 (which i would use) is for situations not covered by the rules, and the various rules already quoted cover the specific elements, there are aspects that make it substantially different.

In saying this I haven't checked for any other relevant decisions that might be more specific.

 

[rulie]

I honk we have all got to the same place on the original post...or maybe I just hope.

You raise an interesting point in this post regarding the situation bought in and I would suggest that there are overriding principles that could be bought into the equation - the most obvious being a concession when the facts aren't known; in this case the true state of the match!

Obviously this one would need a committee to be bought in to rule but, we're I to be involved I would take the match back to that hole and have the putt taken in addition to the adjustment to the match.

Whilst 1-4 (which i would use) is for situations not covered by the rules, and the various rules already quoted cover the specific elements, there are aspects that make it substantially different.

In saying this I haven't checked for any other relevant decisions that might be more specific.

You're right that it would be a committee decision, but I still say that the last hole "stands as played" (including the concession).

 

[Spuddy]

The player by the shaking of the conceedes the persons putt which was for a three and therefore wins that hole and therefore the match score is 8&6

I agree with this.. You see it quite often at the Ryder Cup where a team needs to hole a birdie putt for a chance to continue the match (providing one of their opponents who is still to putt misses his upcoming birdie putt). If the first player misses, the tie is over and the 2nd player's putt is conceded. In theory they could make them putt out but in this format the margin of win is irrelevant. If it was some sort of matchplay league where the margin of victory can be a factor then you would be well within your rights to get him to putt out.

 

[Craigg]

The player by the shaking of the concedes the persons putt which was for a three and therefore wins that hole and therefore the match score is 8&6

I'm with Phil. See my Post #5

Could have saved you chaps all that typing if you'd read the first page.

 

[Region3]

You're right that it would be a committee decision, but I still say that the last hole "stands as played" (including the concession).

If instead of the 15 clubs scenario, the losing team had shook hands after the opposition said they were down in 4 when it was in fact 5, what would the rules say?

 

[delc]

Why are people making this so complicated? The original poster had a putt for a 3, which would have won the hole. If their opponents conceded the match before this putt was taken, they have also effectively conceded the putt, so it's 8&6. If he takes the putt and misses, and then they shake hands, it's 7&6. Unless the result was important in some other way, I personally wouldn't quibble either way!

 

[rulie]

Why are people making this so complicated? The original poster had a putt for a 3, which would have won the hole. If their opponents conceded the match before this putt was taken, they have also effectively conceded the putt, so it's 8&6. If he takes the putt and misses, and then they shake hands, it's 7&6. Unless the result was important in some other way, I personally wouldn't quibble either way!

Just as in your case of treading on your ball causing you a one stroke penalty, the correct answer to the original post was provided in the first few posts. However, other questions were asked and are being discussed. The discussion isn't going to change the correct answer to the original question - it's 8&6.

 

[rosecott]

Why are people making this so complicated? The original poster had a putt for a 3, which would have won the hole. If their opponents conceded the match before this putt was taken, they have also effectively conceded the putt, so it's 8&6. If he takes the putt and misses, and then they shake hands, it's 7&6. Unless the result was important in some other way, I personally wouldn't quibble either way!

Just as in your case of treading on your ball causing you a one stroke penalty, the correct answer to the original post was provided in the first few posts. However, other questions were asked and are being discussed. The discussion isn't going to change the correct answer to the original question - it's 8&6.

I'm struggling to remember the last time I agreed with Delc but I think you are wrong. The handshake merely acknowledged that the concession of a 4 to halve the hole meant that the result was 7&6. The "dead" putt for a possible 3 had no relevance whatsoever to the result which had already been decided.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm struggling to remember the last time I agreed with Delc but I think you are wrong. The handshake merely acknowledged that the concession of a 4 to halve the hole meant that the result was 7&6. The "dead" putt for a possible 3 had no relevance whatsoever to the result which had already been decided.

The handshake conceedes the putt then the hole and finally the match - it happens very regualry in for example RC matches when teams win 2 up for example or 3&1 or 4&2 etc

There was still one ball in play - shaking hands conceeded that one ball - simple as that.

 

[rosecott]

The handshake conceedes the putt then the hole and finally the match - it happens very regualry in for example RC matches when teams win 2 up for example or 3&1 or 4&2 etc

There was still one ball in play - shaking hands conceeded that one ball - simple as that.

Again, I'm struggling to remember that last time I disagreed with you. The sequence is:

Putt for 4 conceded
Handshakes as Match is over 7&6
The ball of player who would have had a putt for 3 if opponent had sunk putt for 3 is "dead" - the ball is not in play as the match is concluded.

PS

I apologise for suggesting you might not be a gentleman in such a situation - a weak attempt at humour.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Again, I'm struggling to remember that last time I disagreed with you. The sequence is:

Putt for 4 conceded
Handshakes as Match is over 7&6
The ball of player who would have had a putt for 3 if opponent had sunk putt for 3 is "dead" - the ball is not in play as the match is concluded.

PS

I apologise for suggesting you might not be a gentleman in such a situation - a weak attempt at humour.

The putt conceeded was the one for 3

They conceeded the putt for four and then putted themselves so match was still alive and the putt for 3 was still alive - once they missed their attempt for 3 they then shook hands conceeding the final putt for 3 - 8&6 win

 

[backwoodsman]

I think the crucial bit that this thread has directed me to , is decision 2/2. " ... stipulated round has ended when all of the players in the match have completed the final hole of the match ..."

My mistake was thinking that the oppo's missed putt ended the match by making it impossible for them to do do anything but lose. But decision 2/2 says the match is not over until i have completed the hole. And if i haven't completed the hole, there are still more than 6 holes to play - ie 6 to come plus the one still in play . Which means that we don't yet meet the criteria for a win under rule 2/3 of leading by more holes than remain to be played. I suppose that at the point after the oppo's putt and before the handshake, the match is still technically dormie 7 - ie them 7 down with 7 to play (or complete). The handshake resolves it all.