How low could someone go?

woody69 said:
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I disagree. Putting is a skill that can be taught and practiced and besides you get close enough with the approach usually you're a 2 putt away at most.
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every golf skill can be taught, it doesn't mean you can put that into practice effectively and under pressure. Putting is the easiest skill to teach, anyone can putt, but factor in speed, grain, line and natural ability to read the greens and it's a whole different ball game.
 
TheJezster said:
It's ok Woody, some of us understood what you meant ;-)

Hence why I mentioned it to hawkeye. No bother tho, thanks for clarifying again.

Interesting topic.
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I don't know why I'm bothering with this but it wasn't clear, the OP said if I was given the opportunity with my current handicap. If he didn't want me to take my current handicap into account, why mention it and why say it was a slightly different question if it was the same one?

Anyhow, not important and like I said, not even sure why I bothered :D
 
shivas irons said:
Look mate if you play off 21 and you think if you were a better putter you could be a cat1 player your wrong, you also state in your first post that you think you could become a cat1 player within a year if you followed the proper drills.How long have you been playing to get to your 21 handicap? .The only players who achieve cat1 status so quickly have a great natural ability for the game and it does happen, I worked with a chap that with 2 yeards of picking up a club was playing off 5.If you havent got that ability hit 50, 000 range balls over 10 years and you will proberly knock between 5-10 shots of your handicap like the rest of us ;)
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I don't state that if I was a better putter I could be a cat1 player. I was merely responding to the post that stated because I had said "I can't currently putt for toffee" that I would never be a cat 1 player. I firmly believe that I *could* be a cat 1 player after 1 year, full time following the regime of a professional player with a full time coach and even then I said I would probably "scrape cat 1", i.e. it would be close and by no means guaranteed.

In answer to your other question, I started playing golf on my 29th birthday and I am currently 34, however although that is 5 years for what seems little improvement (1st round of 126 down to my best of 90) I have actually only played just over 100 rounds of golf in total, or approximately 20 times each year, with perhaps half a dozen lessons and even less number of visits to the range. I don't practice and this is my problem, but I know when I play a "lot" of golf (using the term loosely, i.e. I went to Scotland for a week and played 6 rounds over 5 days) I could see an obvious improvement in how I was striking the ball, finesse shots and putting (1st round 40 putts, last round 29 putts). Of course after that, I didn't play for 2 months so slipped back into my previous level, but this is what got me thinking about how much someone could actually improve with a whole year to practice, but not just some guy out there doing it on his own (and continuing to do things wrong), but having a structured regime with a coach etc etc

I'm not arguing the point that some people have great natural ability and are able to get down to cat1 or scratch in a shortened period than other people, but you're saying it's not possible for anyone else and I'm sorry, but I disagree. It comes down to hard work and lots and lots of practice. My friend who is a cat 1 practices twice a week on the range etc, plays usually once or twice and when he was starting out used to play 54 holes of golf a day throughout the summer holidays. It didn't come about because he had great natural ability, it was a combination of that and practice.
 
HawkeyeMS said:
I don't know why I'm bothering with this but it wasn't clear, the OP said if I was given the opportunity with my current handicap. If he didn't want me to take my current handicap into account, why mention it and why say it was a slightly different question if it was the same one?

Anyhow, not important and like I said, not even sure why I bothered :D
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Like I said, apologies for the poorly worded question, but the first question is meant to ask taking an average player with a high handicap, what you think they could get to if they were to resubmit their 3 cards again after 1 year to effectively get their new starting handicap again and the second was the same question but aimed at you and your current level. Seeing as the handicap you have best describes the relative level of the player that is why I worded it like I did, but I didn't mean the whole recalc of handicaps by playing in comps, buffers etc etc, just the standard 3 cards to calc the starting point. :)
 
woody69 said:
Like I said, apologies for the poorly worded question, but the first question is meant to ask taking an average player with a high handicap, what you think they could get to if they were to resubmit their 3 cards again after 1 year to effectively get their new starting handicap again and the second was the same question but aimed at you and your current level. Seeing as the handicap you have best describes the relative level of the player that is why I worded it like I did, but I didn't mean the whole recalc of handicaps by playing in comps, buffers etc etc, just the standard 3 cards to calc the starting point. :)
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No need to apologise, it really doesn't matter.
 
woody69 said:
I have often wondered how good you reckon someone could get if they followed the regime of a pro for a year in terms of coaching, practice rounds etc etc?

Say you had an average player of around 22-25 handicap on day 1, that was offered the opportunity to follow a strict regime that the pros follow (i.e. it became your job and you had a full time pro coaching you etc), then at the end of the year, they had their new handicap calculated from 3 cards (as if you were just starting out).

I know it is obviously dependent on the ability of the player and everyone is different, but on average, do you think they could get to scratch? Less than 5? Around 10? Higher? We're talking about playing golf 5-6 days a week, full time with coaching, drills and practice living the life of some of the pros. Of course there will be the odd days off through sickness, holiday etc but its becomes your life for 12 solid months

I think the average would be Cat 1, somewhere between 2-5. What do you reckon?

And slightly different question and perhaps easier to answer, where do you reckon you could end up if the opportunity was offered to you today with your current handicap? I think I could just about scrape in as a cat 1 player :)
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In Todays Golfer magazine there was an article about an amercian commercial photographer who beleived in the 10,000 to learn a hard skill rule.

He is now 3 and half years into his full time programme with all the coaching, custom fitting, progression reports, competitive golf, and fitness etc. He is currently of 6.5 and he has practised for 5,000 hours, that the equivalent of 13 Hours 41 minutes and 40 seconds of practise 365 days on the run with no breaks.

I dont think he will make the tour in another 3 years, a lot of the pro's are naturally gifted. Look at Westwood for example, first played at 13, was off scratch by 16. And he didnt practise or play anywhere near that amount. As much as we like to think scratch is acheivable to us all it takes years of practise and a certain amount of gifted ability. Search google for TheDanPlan

I think in a year with all that coaching and practise you could maybe get to around 8 or 9 if you were very lucky
 
laughable to think that anyone can become a scratch player with the right training. its really not giving scratch players the dues they deserve. to knock the ball around in par/ under par every times takes real talent. its not something you can really teach.


single figs - yeah no sweat
cat 1 - maybe ( depends on how long the course is that you are playing imo)
scratch - next to no chance
tour - your having a laugh.


the difference between a scratch player and tour player is massive. consider this, you might find a scratch player at a local club measuring under 6000yards. merion was considered short at just shy of 7000. the pros were mostly taking irons. average length of course on tour 7,200! it doesn't take a genius to see the mahoosive jump between scratch player and tour pro.
 
Doesn't Justin Rose play off +6 when he plays his non-pro friends. Now imagine how hard it is to get from 6 to scratch - just unbelievably difficult - getting more difficult shot by shot. Then keep going one shot at a time to +6. Nuts.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Doesn't Justin Rose play off +6 when he plays his non-pro friends. Now imagine how hard it is to get from 6 to scratch - just unbelievably difficult - getting more difficult shot by shot. Then keep going one shot at a time to +6. Nuts.
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ive never heard about rose +6 but its just silly inconceivable golf to us hackers.
 
I had a rethink about this and actually I agree with all those saying it isn't possible.
And the simple reason is; we are talking about the 'average' golfer.

There is nothing 'average' about being a scratch player so of course someone who fits this mould could not become a scratch golfer in a year no matter how hard they tried.

So all the single figure handicaps can rest assured that some 'average joe' isn't going to become a better player than them just because they start hitting a couple of extra practice balls.

But then why are we bothered about the 'average' player? If it was possible for average golfers to become scratch players in a year golf professionals would advance to an even greater level.

But why can't we talk about all golfers that are currently playing off 20? Wouldn't it be great if there were individuals out there who had the game to get to scratch if only they had the right coaching and the right work ethic. This premise gives all golfers hope and hope is a very important thing to have when you are striving towards a goal.

Sitting there saying 'it's not possible' and 'I am angry that you could even suggest someone who is worse than me currently could be much better than me in 12 months, when I work hard at my game and have spent years playing golf' isn't going to help us get any new people into this sport.

Wow, apologies, looks like this took a wrong turn and may have become a rant! It isn't. I just really like to look at every topic from as many angles as possible.
 
My first post on this forum - and it's a controversial one! I think you can get to scratch, even if you are 'average'. Given the 10,000 hours theory (check out the book by Malcom Gladwell) anyone can perform at the top level. It's all about practise, muscle memory, learned technique and persistence. Golf is not a natural game - you have to learn the techniques that work - there are no 'natural golfers' as golf is not natural - if it were, it would be a lot easier! Just some people click with the right technique earlier than others. If you can get all the elements of the game together, along with some decent coaching, feedback and analysis I think anyone can do it.
 
londonlewis said:
I had a rethink about this and actually I agree with all those saying it isn't possible.
And the simple reason is; we are talking about the 'average' golfer.

There is nothing 'average' about being a scratch player so of course someone who fits this mould could not become a scratch golfer in a year no matter how hard they tried.

So all the single figure handicaps can rest assured that some 'average joe' isn't going to become a better player than them just because they start hitting a couple of extra practice balls.

But then why are we bothered about the 'average' player? If it was possible for average golfers to become scratch players in a year golf professionals would advance to an even greater level.

But why can't we talk about all golfers that are currently playing off 20? Wouldn't it be great if there were individuals out there who had the game to get to scratch if only they had the right coaching and the right work ethic. This premise gives all golfers hope and hope is a very important thing to have when you are striving towards a goal.

Sitting there saying 'it's not possible' and 'I am angry that you could even suggest someone who is worse than me currently could be much better than me in 12 months, when I work hard at my game and have spent years playing golf' isn't going to help us get any new people into this sport.

Wow, apologies, looks like this took a wrong turn and may have become a rant! It isn't. I just really like to look at every topic from as many angles as possible.
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scratch in a year - im going to say it. no chance. playing golf in our weather and getting down to scratch is an outstanding achievement.
 
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